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January 24, 2006
Calling all crashers....
Most of you are probably familiar with the Mozilla Quality Feedback Agent (aka Talkback) already, but for those that aren't, it's a crash reporting system we use to collect stack traces and user feedback to improve the stability of various Mozilla products. For most of you, Talkback is the little window that pops up when Firefox crashes... it asks you for feedback about your crash and allows you to send that info to Mozilla.
I have been working with Talkback since my days at Netscape ('99-'03). I helped get it setup and running shortly after the Mozilla Foundation was created and am currently managing the Talkback infrastructure, tools development, and crash analysis at the Mozilla Corporation. Until recently, I had been one of the few people looking at the crash data on a regular basis to identify topcrashers. A few people have been helping me out by keeping an eye on various reports for regressions, logging new crash bugs, creating reproducible testcases, and doing general topcrash analysis and debugging.
With the growing popularity of Firefox and the increasing amounts of crash data coming in for our various product releases and development trees, it's the perfect time to get the community more involved! I hope to start posting regularly to share my experience with Talkback and to help others take advantage of the tools and reports we have to continue improving the stability of all Mozilla products.
I wanted to first ask everyone for feedback about what they want to know about Talkback and what types of posts they would like to see in the future. I plan to slowly introduce you to the various components of the system...as well as try to summarize the various reports and tools that are available to us for crash analysis. Other than that, I think I'll go with the flow and find new ways to get the community involved. What do you think?
I'm glad to see all the great feedback! There's actually more than I thought there would be...which is good...and I'm going to respond to most of the comments in my next post.
For now, I just wanted to let people know that we do not have access to the Talkback source code and therefore it's unlikely that any of the problems people see with the Talkback client window or network connections will be fixed any time soon. I would still like to ask that you look for your bug in Bugzilla and log a new one if it doesn't exist... but keep in mind that it might not be looked at for a long time.
What we can do is work together to find workarounds for some of the minor problems. And I think with the knowledge I plan to share with you all, some of you will be able to dig deeper and find ways to make the Talkback experience better.
I forgot to point people to the various places for Talkback info, so here's a few to start with:
Talkback Reports: http://talkback-public.mozilla.org/reports/
Talkback QuickSearch and FastFind query tools: http://talkback-public.mozilla.org/talkback/fastfind.jsp
Talkback Wiki Page: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community:Talkback (nothing here yet, but I plan to start adding more info very soon!)
Take a look at a few reports and run a couple of queries to get a feel for what's available. Keep an eye out for another post next week! - Jay
Posted by jay at January 24, 2006 2:38 PM
Comments
One question. Just one. Is fixing/resolving bug 210251 something we should expect in the near future?
Gérard
Posted by: Gérard Talbot at January 24, 2006 4:51 PM
a) address privacy (what data is being sent? how is it stored? how long?...)
b) why and what additional information should users provide? Clarfiy the question "why should I tell them something, they should know by the data collected and sent"
Just of the top of my head...
Posted by: JasonMR at January 24, 2006 5:05 PM
Sounds great! As a developer for Mozilla's SVG code I'd like to learn how to narrow crash results to crashes occuring on SVG content. Then again I guess that's of limited interest to your general audience so maybe I'll go research that myself. :-)
Posted by: Jonathan Watt at January 24, 2006 5:07 PM
Gerard: See my comment in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=210251
Jason and Jonathan: Thanks for the quick feedback... all great things to discuss. I will be sure to address them soon.
Posted by: Jay at January 24, 2006 5:57 PM
My biggest problem with the Talkback client is it doesn't remember which boxes you've checked in the show report screen. For example, if you want to send the stack trace but would rather not send other details about your computer, you have to scroll down the list and uncheck what you don't want EVERY SINGLE TIME you file a report.
Couldn't find a bug on this. Should I file one?
Posted by: RC at January 24, 2006 7:42 PM
Will you be looking at feedback from old builds? E.g. will you be looking at crash data from Firefox 1.5 in a month? Or is it only crashes in recent builds that are interesting?
Posted by: Christian at January 24, 2006 11:47 PM
For me, there is a little problem with talkback and nighly builds ...
Each time you install a new version of FF or TB, when you lanch talkback, the list is clear, so, you cannot have trace of the old crash ...
An other thing: often, talkback-public is busy ... how can i see the stack trace on my computer without waiting that talkback-public server has processed my TB report?
Posted by: jimich at January 25, 2006 1:26 AM
They definitely want crash data for the latest Firefox 1.5 branch builds (e.g. they are releasing 1.5.0.1 very soon), because it is their shipping product. As long as they intend to keep shipping updates to Firefox 1.5, I imagine they'll want crash reports.
Posted by: Ian at January 25, 2006 1:52 AM
To explain further, as long as you keep your browser up to date with whatever Gecko rev you are using (for 1.8 branch builds the latest 1.5.0.* beta/RC, or for 1.9 trunk builds the latest nightly) your crash reports are always worthwhile. Only if you're still using 1.5 when 1.5.0.1 comes out, you might be reporting crashes fixed in that version.
Posted by: Ian at January 25, 2006 1:57 AM
I'd love to know if there is any trend analysis and/or reporting that I could do to help the coders identify the most common and/or problematic issues.
Can I access the data and do analysis from my web browser?
Is there a framework for accepting this sort of volunteer work?
Posted by: pd at January 25, 2006 2:46 AM
The biggest hindrance for me is that for nightly builds I have to re-enter my e-mail address every time I update to a new nightly build (which I do daily). After a while, I just stopped providing my e-mail address. For some reason, this situation has also caused me to enter less crash descriptions.
It would be a big improvement, if these basic talkback fields (e-mail, URL, comment) were remembered in the Application Data folder (WinXP) and remembered from nightly build to nightly build.
It would be even better if the fields (e-mail, URL, comment) had dropdown lists with the 10 last entered values.
Posted by: Peter Lairo at January 25, 2006 3:28 AM
> Other than that, I think I'll go with the flow and find new ways to get the community involved. What do you think?
Helping the SeaMonkey community to get talkback enabled on their 1.8.x branch builds could enlarge the community and get more people involved.
There are most likely a lot of crashes in the MailNews part of SeaMonkey that will be in Thunderbird as well (due to the high codebase sharing) - therfore having crash analysis on both would be very beneficial.
Posted by: ste at January 25, 2006 4:55 AM
I'm often looking at the talkabck website too
My biggest problem with Talkback is that it doesn't work thru an authenticating proxy-server. And (as jimich wrote) you can't view the talkback-data yourself before it's sent to the server.
Posted by: jhermans at January 25, 2006 6:46 AM
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Posted by: jhermans at January 25, 2006 6:47 AM
I would like talkback would work fine under Linux. Most of the time TB misses the crashes.
I know that TB is a foreigh product Mozilla can't touch, but perhaps would be a nice idea to start a "open source" talkback project. As a +25 year experience programmer, the project seems fairly doable, at least under Linux/Solaris (my SO's).
Posted by: jcea at January 25, 2006 9:00 AM
Does talkback send what extensions you have installed? If not, should we list them in the comments window?
Posted by: Jimmy at January 25, 2006 11:35 AM
Oo, I've been looking for bug 216827 forever. I've always thought there must be an open-source tool that does the same thing somewhere...
But if we do get stuck with the current software, is it a closed product? Does it ever get updated ever? The UE could be improved with only some small improvements. Also, Talkback on a Linux Thunderbird build still says that it's a Netcape product.
Can mozilla.org pay to get the sourcce released?
Posted by: Daniel Cater at January 25, 2006 11:39 AM
WHAT?? Firefox crashes?? Not.On.My.Computer. (at least not while I've been using it) :)
Posted by: Janine at January 25, 2006 2:43 PM
Jay, it's a great idea to give some tutorial for novice users. I know that there are too less people working with talkback. The most of them are afraid to offer private data when sending such a report. Perhaps you can give an overview which information about the system is transferred and what is only visible for talkback users. Also the most of them aren't able to give a talkback id. They can easily send the report but aren't able to find the talkback application. IMO this should be integrated as extension within Firefox and Thunderbird (which is already done) but there should also be a menu item to start the tb application or doing a complete rewrite and just opening an internal window with the list of ids.
All that will improve our work with talkback incidents. But meanwhile a tutorial is much favorably. See you on irc again!
Posted by: Henrik Skupin at January 26, 2006 12:32 AM
Great post, thanks for the links to the tools, they look cool!
I'd like to be able to find *my* talkback stack traces, so I can see what problems have crashed my system. I won't usually remember the comments I entered as they could be weeks ago.
Obviously it would be a privacy concern to include my personal data, but it might be a nice opt-in option to be able to generate a random hash key for my installation of an app, and then include it in each comment so that I can subsequently search for any of my crashes.
I guess this is scratch-your-own-itch: I want to fix my own problems :-)
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Every time I submit crash data, the client cuts my internet connection, ususally at least twice, before letting it send sucessfully.
Posted by: smartcat99s at February 10, 2006 2:17 PM
since i have firefox 1.5 i was never succesfull in sending talkback report. it always fails to connect saying that i should check my proxy....
anyway it doesn't matter ifi enableor diasble proxy it just doesn't work. and i can browse in firefox using same settings
Posted by: selmi at February 22, 2006 4:55 AM
All that will improve our work with talkback incidents. But meanwhile a tutorial is much favorably. See you on irc again!
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