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September 6, 2005

Getting to know our testers...

It's been a couple of months now since we began this blog, and we have received great feedback through our community testing events. We have also realized that our community is made up of many different types of testers and people with varying levels of experience with browser and email testing.

In order to better plan and coordinate future community events, we need your help. More specifically, we want to learn more about all of you and what you hope to bring to the Mozilla QA Community. In order for us to get to know you better and allow you to introduce yourself to the rest of the community, please add yourself to the Mozilla Testers wiki page (if you don't have a Mozilla wiki account, you'll need to create one). Tell us more about where you live, work, and play...and a little about what you can do to help. I've started it off...so you can use my entry as a guideline. Also be sure to let us know which of the following types of tester you hope to be: Casual, Regular, or Nightly and which OS(s) you use regularly.

From all of your involvment and feedback, we have determined that there are three major types of testers out there that are ready to help:

Casual: Individuals who might stop in for casual testing and may not want to get deep into the functionality of either the browser or email. These individuals are probably not interested in serious testing on an ongoing basis, but still want to check out the latest features and fixes and help out however they can to find bugs through their normal daily browsing routine.

Regular: Individuals who are interested in helping out on a more regular basis when we have major testing events and/or alpha/beta releases. These individuals might consider themselves as Casual testers most of the time, but are ready to step up to help with basic functional tests (BFTs) and new feature tests (NFTs) when the time comes. They also are interested in creating a Bugzilla account and taking the time to familiarize themselves with the bug system. In time we hope that some of them will become Nightly testers.

Nightly: Individuals that download our builds on a daily basis and test them. Most of these individuals understand the difference between branch and trunk builds and may have even helped out with basic functional tests (BFTs) and new feature tests (NFTs). These individuals might be more inclined to want to be involved in testing on an ongoing basis. These individuals likely have Bugzilla accounts and have filed bugs in the system.

I'm sure most of you will be able to identify with one of those groups, and if you're unsure, we suggest you start Casual and see if you can find time to get more involved as a Regular or Nightly tester.

So tell us more about yourselves... we look forward to getting to know all of you.

Posted by jay at September 6, 2005 4:44 PM

Comments

Nice idea, but I doubt that Casual or even most Regular Testers are going to add themself to such a (rather complicated) Wiki entry. Great minimalistic entry 'exam' though ;)

About QA, NFT and especially Nightly testing/verification/triage etc.: IMHO there is a very capable bunch of people that hang around 24/7 in the Mozillazine Nightly Builds Threads of Peter(6) (Branch) and chob (Trunk).
I think requests from QA and also Devs. (for example that just checked in a Patch and need feedback) would be very welcome. IMHO a Forum is also the more appropriate place for discussing/triaging specific Bugs/issues. A QA Blog seems to be the better place for BFT and general Reports from Users that dont want to dive into the dephts of a special Forum.

I also think some better way of communication is needed (between Nightly Testers and Devs.) since sometimes the expected behaviour of a new feature/checkin is unclear, some obvious Problems could still be Work-in-Progress but also simply forgotten etc.
After some discussion, lets-wait-and-see is often the action taken because noone wants to submit superflous spam in Bugzilla (there is already enough of that).

Posted by: Stebs at September 6, 2005 7:00 PM

Stebs makes an excellent point. A good number of nightly tests hang out in the nightly builds threads (branch/trunk) and those threads are a good way for developers/etc. to communicate with testers.

Posted by: Rishi at September 6, 2005 8:36 PM

Great points...thanks guys! We have already started to discuss how we can start combining the QA blog, wiki, and newsgroup (coming soon hopefully) with the forums at Mozillazine in order to address the challenges of building a community and addressing the needs of everyone involved. Hopefully we'll be able to put all the pieces together soon...

Posted by: Jay at September 7, 2005 12:14 AM

And there are also some people that don't look into those mozillazine threads at all but still test nightlies ;)

Posted by: mcsmurf at September 7, 2005 4:18 AM

I'm a nightly tester too, however in the past months I also see a big problem in communication and priority also. Basically the mozillazine threads are where we talk about bugs we see daily, but many questions remain unanswered, and often no one knows the answer for a few days until someone "in the know" can answer.


Bugzilla is even worse, and looking at bugs there can do nothing but discourage testers. Priorities for the community seem totally different from devs priority. Some bugs get voted on hundreds of times and talked about weekly on mozillazine yet get only 1 dev comment saying "this isn't a priority for me" and that's basically it (example: 104532). Worse, some bugs get a third party developer to actually submit a patch, but since it's not a priority, the patch isn't even reviewed, sits in the bugzilla thread for 8 months and never gets commited, remains unfixed to this day (example: 245737).


So all this leaves a sore taste in many people's mouth. And that's juste tester-developer communication, when you go to the user-developer it's many times worse. The latest nightly is a perfect example of that, where there's basically 4 different versions of the same application (firefox 1.4, deer park 1.5 beta1, deer park alpha2, mozilla 1.8b4).


So there you have it.

Posted by: elfguy at September 7, 2005 6:50 AM

One of those 'karma' or 'reputation' systems might help. For us outsiders, in the forums, it's hard to tell if the irascible being we've irritated by asking a stupid question is really Zeus, thunderbolt-capable, or only the Great and Mighty Oz blowing smoke.

Lifting the curtain could help.

Posted by: Hank Roberts at September 7, 2005 8:01 AM

@ Hank Roberts, indeed I had the same idea some time ago (but we should probably talk to Mozillazine Mods about this):
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=1674823&highlight=devs#1674823
The other idea I had there, was having some guys that act as the (currently missing) link to some main Devs and Mozilla-Folks. Those chosen few could then communicate with "the Gods" ;) via Email, IRC, ICQ etc. in behalf of the Testers-Community. Having always the same 3-4 People doing the communication would prevent Devs beeing spammed by a lot of Users and helps build some relationship. Perhaps it would be usefull too, having basically the same Devs that listen to the questions and suggestions of our "Missing-link guys" -wouldn't THAT be an interesting Mozillazine-Forum-Reputation ;) and then distributing the Questions to the right Dev.
I think there are quite some non-trivial Questions and Suggestions that dont belong into Bugzilla.

Posted by: Stebs at September 7, 2005 9:29 AM

Thank you all for you thoughts and ideas... they are all valid and something we hope to work out in time.

Keep in mind though, that the MoFo QA team is very small and we are putting together the blog and wiki in an attempt to better guide the community into helping us test things that DO get attention from the devs. I think that in itself should save a lot of people time they might currently consider a "waste" because bugs don't get resolved/fixed/etc.

With that said, I do agree with Hank and Stebs that we need to improve communication between the Mozilla QA Community and "the Gods"...who are all really awesome, but just normal people like you and me. ;-) So, I think that is one area I can help with. To get us started, I have created a new Suggestions Box wiki page: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community:Suggestion_Box

That is a good place to start writing out your ideas... Let's get an idea of what everyone is thinking and then we'll do our best to see what the best way to address them will be. Thanks.

PS - Yes, the wiki can be a pain to get used to, but I do think it is a good place to document all of this stuff so that EVERYONE has a way to contribute. It's simple enough to create an account, and hopefully people will learn how to use it in time.

Posted by: Jay at September 7, 2005 1:33 PM

Are you going to respond to the many excellent issues that elfguy brought up or are you going to continue to ignore them? I see him offering constructive feedback but I notice the Mozilla team only responds to those messages that are not critical.

I must admit I becoming more and more disillusioned with the Firefox development process. It seems what gets fixed is based more on the whims of the developers than the wishes of the end users (much like Microsoft). Your website proudly states,"We believe ...in listen[ing] to [our] users" but I'm not seeing this in practice.

How can we expect Mozilla to get more market share if the wishes of the users are continually ignored? When IE7 comes out, Mozilla is going to have something very compelling to prevent users from going back to IE.

Posted by: Jack at September 7, 2005 3:00 PM

Jack: Give us time to respond to the issues that elfguy raised - understand that we are a small team, and we (the QA team) are working right now on getting the beta1 out. Thanks.

Posted by: marcia at September 7, 2005 3:38 PM

@elfguy: It's known ben more or less ignores most review requests, it's actually a shame, but that's the way it goes over at the FF project... you have to look for another reviewer.
@Stebs: There are already some people that know the community somewhat good and also talk to the developers. But these are only people and mostly the developers also just want to do their work, what they think is important (but they listen ;) and the work they do is important i can asure you). Speaking of the FF main dev lead, he also is not reachable for most of these people, too.

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At Preview I startted following Firefox and after a while decided to begin testing it using the nightlies. That is how I got involved.

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Posted by: Comer at December 3, 2007 2:59 PM

Larisa

Posted by: Xlop at December 3, 2007 3:11 PM

Kinolog

Posted by: Hlopez at December 3, 2007 3:22 PM

Hello, nice site :)

Posted by: Brin at December 3, 2007 11:49 PM

Hello, nice site :)

Posted by: Brin at December 3, 2007 11:49 PM

Hello, nice site :)

Posted by: Brin at December 3, 2007 11:49 PM

Guruchel

Posted by: Bob at December 4, 2007 10:43 AM

Ulia

Posted by: Saturn at December 4, 2007 10:59 AM

Bobi

Posted by: Golrtok at December 4, 2007 11:02 AM

Ost

Posted by: Olga at December 4, 2007 11:08 AM

Irina

Posted by: Robert at December 5, 2007 11:29 AM

Larisa

Posted by: Kollins at December 5, 2007 11:41 AM