Y'know.. saying it like that actually makes me reconsider my opinion of the movie. Well, the plot at least.

Why the choice? Well, unless a more insightful comment is made after mine: it's just a plot device. Choice has been a big part of the plot of both movies (blue pill/red pill etc) and the Architect took a great deal of time rambling on about human nature and "choice" in general- but moreover, he expected Neo to make the same choice as his five predecessors. It wasn't meant to be a choice, it was meant to be the illusion of choice- the Architect was 100% sure that Neo would take the left door... but he was wrong.

The best interpretation that I've seen so far considered the Zionites to be a necessary "memory leak" in the Matrix program. If you consider that the humans that are hooked up are not only the battery source, but also the RAM, the CPU and anything else you need to maintain a program, it makes sense that if you continue to allow batteries to unhook at an exponential rate then eventually the Matrix will crash and everybody left in it is killed.

It's necessary because the simulation is only acceptable to 99.9% of users if they have a choice to "opt-out". Of course, most of them won't be given that choice because there aren't enough Zionites to free them.

So either Neo "reboots" Zion with a fresh batch of 20-odd people to set the process going again, or he is allowed to take his abilities out of the Matrix and use them to stop the sentinels.

The nested Matrix theory is still open to speculation, but personally I doubt it.

I hated the rave scene - frankly I think a lot of the first twenty minutes wasn't so good.

However I agree with your assesment -- the "real world" is just another shell of the matrix.

As far as I could tell from the Architect speech - the reason that he had to give Neo a choice was because that is what humans need - Software has no choices (the KeyMaker states this throughout) - whereas the Matrix has to give humans choice otherwise they reject the matrix.

So the 'outer shell' of the matrix (Zion, phrophesy, The One, Etc..) must also contain choice.

I agree; I loved it. Aside from that I do think that the "real world" is the matrix within a matrix. Otherwise, the infection couldn't have taken place and Neo couldn't have stopped the sentinels with mind bullets.

Neo's choice? Simple. Branched execution. ;)

I came to the same conclusions about Zion and the 'real world". I also wondered about the choice given Neo by the Architect. What some others have said about the outer world needing the illusion of choice as much as the inner world makes sense, but I can't help feeling that there is another twist that the Wachowski brothers have saved for Revolutions.

After seeing the movie, my girlfriend and I tried to identify scenes or subplots that seemed confusing or irrelevant. We think they would likely be hints about what major surprises are in store for the third movie. We couldn't really find enough loose ends to make any guesses however.

One thing that did stick out in my mind was the many repetitions about understanding a choice, not just by the Architect, but by the Oracle and Merovingian, and possibly earlier in the movie. It could just be the machines trying to eliminate the anomaly by understanding why humans need choice, but I suspect there's another plot twist hidden in there...

I liked it, will need to see it again soon so I can get a better sense of the details of the plot and what the writers are saying about purpose (which Agent Smith now lacks and Neo is trying to find), choice, and love.

I found it interesting that the Architect was apparently unbothered by Neo's choice of doors.

I don't buy the "real world" as second Matrix level. I could, of course, be wrong, but I think something else is going on aside from that with Neo's ability to interact with the machines in the real world. Zion could still be a ruse and be real. The Agents have already claimed the ability to wipe a person's memory (the deal with Cypher in the first film), so why couldn't Smith load himself into a human brain?

Why did Smith's real world doppelganger cut himself and then shake Neo's hand?

I agree on the "real world" being another Matrix within the Matrix. This would explain how folks can come back from the dead (Neo in the first, Trinity in the second). I agree on the fact that Neo is the first to transcend the second real world Matrix.

So a few questions: In all the other "Matrix, Matrices" before the end of the Zion and the restart of the scenario to give people choice, is the Neo the same physically? It could very well be, or is it a different Neo each time?

When people die in the Matrix do they really die, or do they just get a new character to play in the Matrix - setting the third up for a return of a bunch of the people we have seen before once Neo shatters the real Matrix. Smith is the first machine to see that the real world is just programming as well - he cuts his hand because he is fascinated with the fact that he is in the "real world" which is now, he realizes, just another program level. That is how Neo changed him, and why Smith is still intent to stop Neo, because Neo can shatter the real Matrix as well as he transcends it too.

I think the reason Smith's 'real world' guy cut himself before shaking Neo's hand was to 'infect' Neo in some way... That COULD be why Neo was able to affect the machines - Smith gave Neo some "power" that no one understands yet.

But I think Dave is right and that Neo's "choice" with the Architect gave him power in the "shell" ('real world with Zion') that he'd previously only had in the Matrix.

It's also possible that in the generations that the Matrix has been running, there's a mutation that causes someone to become "The One"...

The things that bothered me the most were the inconsistencies. The Marovingian, is he a program or a human? If he is a program how can he write the code cake and presumably the albino brothers (that exist nowhere else). Otherwise why don't agents have the abilities of the brothers.

I'm not even going to go into how Neo can stop bullets but can't seem to kill any of the agents or programs without a lot of effort. It seems like it would be a lot easier. I'll let that one go.

What's with the agent that jumps on the car in the highway chase? How can he just crush a car like that? If they have that kind of power how do Morpheus, Trinity and the rest stand a chance?

Not really inconsistent but that ending! What were they thinking? They couldn't have picked a more cliche ending than if they pulled it straight out Murder She Wrote. Maybe they thought that picking up the wounded savior in the ship and then pulling away for an exterior shot would be too blatantly Empire Strikes Back. But come on.

Oh well, it's damn entertaining to say the least.
Don

My explanation of why the Architect must give Neo a choice is quite simple. You've got "The One" standing there, who believes he is all-powerful (and in-fact, is)...and they are just going to *tell* him it's over and expect him to go quietly? By giving him a choice, and highly biasing one of them, as the machines understood the nature of "The One," he only *appeared* to have a choice. However, as the Architect has realized, unlike Neo's predecessors, he has fallen in love. This emotion then becomes the basis for Neo's decision -- and thus, the machines are screwed. At this point, there is nothing the machines could do, as interfering in a way aside from agents, etc with matrix probably would make it unstable and the humans may begin rejecting it because the illusion of choice is fundamentally negated.

Also, the whole scene with the Marovingian (sp?) and Persephone...does anyone think he could have previously been "the one?" Persephone says "her husband used to be like him (Neo)", and she envies Trinity, etc. Could they have been the "Neo & Trinity" of a previous matrix? This may explain why he has some extra "abilities." As you remember, the entire place was encrypted, and he was able to write code (in the form of a fine desert).

^^^Just my ideas..they sound possible though.

I believe that the Architect must give Neo a choice because the equations of the Matrix subscribe to such an event. The "new" matrix is built around the belief that individuals have choice when in fact, we know the matrix actually knows (through the Architect's perfect equations) what one will actually do. This is a sort of fate that the Matrix imposes on every individual: Choice is an illusion within the Matrix because the Matrix has causality pinned down so well.

This is why the Architect gives Neo the choice, but knows already what he plans to do. Interesting...

I don't think the The Merovingian and Persephone are previous incarnations of Neo and Trinity, (or more specifically "The One" and his lover.) Specifically because he states "I've outlasted your predacessors, I'll outlast you." (Or something like that.) Did no one else catch that bit of foreshadowing?

The Merovingian seems to me to be a program from a previous version of the matrix that's gone into exile, as are his henchmen. (As stated by Persephone, when she shoots one of them - and implied by the Oracle when she mentions ghosts, werewolves, etc. The twins sure looked like they could be ghosts that could shift in and out of corporeal form to me...)

I had wondered to my self after seeing the movie, if the left door just led to a false Matrix, a sandbox for lack of a better term. Or if it was just the illusion of choice, and they both led to a place where "The One" could be reincorporated into the Matrix source. I didn't follow that thought through to wonder if the "Real World" has always just been part of the Matrix.

What if in the course of fighting the machines, (and the Agents Smith) in the "Real World", he is only able to save 28 people from destruction? Wouldn't that end up fulfiling the Architect's design?

Just a couple of random thoughts. (And sorry 'bout the fake email address.)

A more interesting question: is the Oracle on Neo's side, or on the Architects? The Architect seems to imply that the Oracle is on his side, that she is part of the process of restabilizing the Matrix. But I think there's a lot of Gnostic symbolism going on in the film (read the book *The Nag Hammadi Codices*, and in particular the Hypostasis of the Archons, for the sources for this symbolism). In Gnostic mythology, the universe is merely a deception created by the creator god in which to trap the souls of humans, and his own soul, and sometimes even the most important soul of all, the soul of Sophia, or wisdom. But only part of Sophia becomes trapped in the Universe, and that part manages eventually to "remember" itself, and can help people to "remember" themselves outside the universe. The Creator, on the other hand, is trapped in his own device, no longer understanding that Sophia is more powerful than he is - believing, indeed, that he created Sophia, and everything else he has merely trapped in the universe - believing his own deception. I would say that the Architect is the Creator (Yaldaboath), the Oracle is Sophia; in other words, that the Architect and the Oracle are two competing AIs from the early stage of the Matrix, and Neo is part of Oracle's plan to free everyone from the Matrix that the Architect has constructed. (And the Merovingian would be another AI from that early stage, one that went along with the Architect: the Merovingian is clearly the god Hades from Greek mythology, who married Persophone after he kidnapped her to his realm and she made the mistake of eating six pomegranate seeds).

Merovingian is most likely a program, at least that's how the oracle described him. It's funny how many people have misquoted it as 'meryl lynch guy'.

I have some thoughts on him here, based on considering what "Merovingian" means in the real world:

http://www.karchner.com/update/archive/000160.html

And I'll just go ahead and quote myself:

Some people believe that much of modern European history can be explained as continuous attempts by some shadowy organization to restore a Merovingian descendant to power, either over france or a united Europe. In a lot of ways, the current Merovingian heir can be considered a "chosen one".

How will it tie in? I think in Revolutions we will learn that there were people who sided with the machines against humanity, some sort of "chosen few", maybe a programmer-priesthood, that were rewarded for their loyalty by being allowed to transfer their consciousness into the Matrix and given special privileges and power once inside. We already know that he is a programmer, and can actually insert new programs into the Matrix (he created the cake-gasm), and that he has survived all six iterations of the Matrix, all things that seem pretty unique thus far.

While the Matrix in a Matrix theory is what we are led to believe, I think that Neo is a hybrid human and robot. He is new in the evolutionary scale as a codependency still exists between man and machine. The matrix triggered an evolutionary change in the human race. Being plugged in from birth no doubt has its effects.

Notice how Neo was actually weakened when he sent an electromagnetic pulse that disabled the robots. This weakening gives us a strong clue. The third movie needs to solve the real problem of how Man and machine can co-exist. Recall the discussion in the lower bowels of Zion or even the Oracles description of programs that did not want to be deleted. (Isn't that why the war started in the first place.) So the ground work is being laid for a program/robot revolution. Revolutionary wars are by definition within a government, not between governments. So the revolution is referring to a Robot/program revolution that comes to the aid of Zion.

The Matrix Reloaded: The Corporate Mofo Guide (http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm) has a lot of interesting ideas about what's going on. It suggests that Neo's choice may be an Asimovian kind of thing -- the machines can't just wipe out humanity, but they can let humanity choose to wipe itself out. I'm on pins and needles to see where this goes next.

i agree except for one thing...

I don't think neo stopped the sentinels. I think Niobe did. i think she used an EMP on them as she was approaching them to rescue them. She was certainly within range -- she appeared within seconds after neo crumpled.

So, just like Smith 'invaded' that human and did the sabotage..the emp that knocked him into a coma, I think Niobe did an emp and it happend to also knock neo into a coma....because neo is not a human, or at the very least, not fully human.

The architect talks about how the "predecessors were designed" and how the one must "return to the source and after which he can then take the 28 humans and rebuild zion.

Yeah, zion is the outer matrix, the control, that's dead on.

But neo is not human. He's just another program.

Poor trinity.

Bryan, dont you think Neo would have noticed his 'allergy' with the EMP the other XX times they fired that thing then? Cause it certainly wasn't the first time he's been around one of those now is it...

Never crossed my mind - the idea that Zion was Matrix2...goes to show how smart I am...lol

My big question though, is this: Why do the machines want to take over the earth...whats their purpose, ok so they can build and build and build til they've used up every square meter on the damn planet. I can see I point in enslaving all humans as battereis and all that - but I dont see what they could possible do/accomplish beyond killing/enslaving their opressor and getting 'free'.
It's like: And then what...?

my 2 pesos anyway...

I work with some of the people at ESC who did the effects and wanted to comment on the story. Unlike The Matrix, Reloaded and Revolutions were never intended to stand on their own. They are actually a single movie that has been literally chopped into two. Seen in that light, I am prepared to wait until Revolution before making any judgements on the story.

As for the Zion is Matrix, I too had come ot that conclusion.

I don't believe the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory. If that were true, then when Agent Smith made it back to the real world, the human who contains Agent Smith's psyche would now look like Agent Smith. However, in the movie, when Agent Smith takes over that crewmember, he looks like Agent Smith in the Matrix but retains his correct physical appearance in Zion.

Kinda off topic but check this one out... it's a fan-made movie of matrix:

http://www.matrixxp2.de/MATRIX_engl_DSL.mov

It's funny =) The effects is pretty impressive for a fan-made movie.

When Neo was in the room talking with the architect and pictures of Neo's life appeared, I believe there were several pictures showing Neo bald outside the "inner matrix".... this seems to be a great additional clue that it is in fact a Matrix within a Matrix. Though one could counter-argue that since Neo is plugged into the Matrix, the architect can access all memories from Neo's brain, and not just the memories that were recorded before Neo "freed his mind." However, it seems like this would be more of a subtle clue supporting the theory of it being a matrix within a matrix.

Comments to the comments above:

Why Smith cut his hand before shaking Neo's? Maybe Smith wanted to make sure that he could actually do damage in Zion. One could argue that Smith is becoming a rogue program, that Neo freed him as well, and he was just trying to figure out what had happened and what his limitations were.

The EMP theory above that explains the comas is interesting, but I think the writers of this story wouldn't go that direction as it would be a bit of a cop-out.

It is easy for an agent to destroy a car, because there is no car. The same cannot be said for the people.

Different agents have different limitations as they are limited by the quality of their code. This is why the agents cannot fly after Neo (until they're upgraded at least).

Really, I can't believe that any critics have said this movie had less of plot than the first movie...

I think that the Architect didn't care which outcome Neo took, but by forcing Neo to make either choice was what he expects will undermine him.

If he chooses Zion he betrays Trinity and vice versa. Either way it could be a major source of guilt and doubt.

Much of what the Oracle spoke to Neo about was not agonizing over the choice (it's already made) but understanding why he made the choice.

Neo already betrayed Trinity once to get help saving Zion (Persephone's kiss). The fact that he didn't favor Zion again on the verge of such a major victory (and after Trinity had betrayed her promise to stay outside) makes me think his predecessors took the Zion path. Why he took the Trinity path seems more questionable and a significant key to the "revolution"

Let's hope Bobby & Sue Ellen Ewing don't make cameos in Revolutions ("It was all a dream")

The matrix-within-a-matrix theory is interesting in a tessalated, "turtles all the way down" sort of way, but I don't know that we have to introduce such a concept to make sense of the Architect's explanations (Occam's Razor and all that).

Zion can indeed be "real" (i.e., not a machine-generated fantasy), but still be (as the Architect claims it is) a carefully managed "control" on the whole system -- the whole world-order which includes both the Matrix and the machine-dominated "desert of the real." The humans get to have their raves, but they're watched closely by the machines until the time comes for the One to arise and start the cycle over again.

Maybe I missed something in the movie, but my impression of the choice offered to him by the Architect was to destroy the Matrix and save Zion, or to save Humanity and sacrifice Zion. Clearly, he didn't choose to destroy the Matrix as the machines are still after Zion. So, his choice to save Trinity was simply a more focused version of saving humanity.

The Architect even comments on the fact that all the previous "Ones" had shown feelings for humanity as a whole, but Neo was showing feelings for a specific human, Trinity. He made his choice to save her.

So, with this in mind, why does everyone seem to think that he chose differently than all the previous "Ones"?

.. and the best things about these movies ?

There's no way that you can prove you're not sat in the Matrix right now .. I love that thought.

You know in Matrix 1, Morpheus says, "You believe it is 1999, when in reality it is closer to 2199." If the Architect is right, it's actually closer to 3199.

I agree about the rave scene, I didn't like that. I guess it was supposed to be a counterpart - the joy and hope in the beginning, and then the darkness and the loss of all hope in the end. Even the Nebuchanezzar is destroyed.

I've had many of the same thoughts as above, but the idea that Neo might be a program is interesting.

Random thought, but I keep thinking about it. When Neo meets the Oracle, and she offers him candy, she has a piece herself ("I love candy"). Did anyone else notice that the candy looked exactly like the red pill?

could be a red herring, but hmmm.....

other random thought...

What is Agent Smith up to? I suspect he's a rogue program now, and he his plans are independent of the matrix. This fits with the Oracles comments about programs choosing to go into exile or back to the source, and Agent Smith's alienation from the "official" agents. Agent Smith's gone viral, and he's going after the OS (Matrix), and not just Neo.

The only thing I have to say, is that I think the Wachowskis would figure we would make that guess, it almost is too predictable. Plus it would negate the whole point of the first movie almost and destroy a lot that the movie offers.

Not too sure about zion being an outer matrix, that idea seems as bad as them waking up to find it was a dream and an exactly like the film The Thirteenth Floor although i'm not saying that either film copied the other.

The one idea i did have is that perhaps at some point in the second film they get trapped in the original matrix in a part written to look just like the real world.

The Architect - Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The sad thing that this sentence, I think, either proves Zion is real or a matrix, I can't tell which one.
Either they are becoming a disaster because they are forming their own matrix, big enough to threaten the other matrix, or by refusing they leave the matrix and threaten the matrix physically.
Personally, with all the innuendos referring to Neo as better than the other "One's", he may be that human-robot hybrid, or something.
My mind isn't quite good enough to come up with great ideas.

Coming back to Geoff's red pill idea, the first one detached him from the matrix what if the second one re-attached him.

If the number of people that refuse the program became too high in the matrix then they would begin to disrupt it, so the machines keep the people in zion alive to find and remove people rejecting it but also the numbers in zion have to be controlled so that they dont become a threat and are wiped out every so often.

Did anyone remain in the theater to watch all of the credits? After the credits are about thirty seconds of footage from the "Matrix Revolutions".

Any impressions?

I read on someone else's interpretation that when the Architect responded to Neo's comment about the Oracle being the mother of the matrix. He responded with a smug "Please." So possibly the Oracle isn't the mother.

what i don't get is the choice Neo has with the architect as if he chooses to save zion like the previous five versions did then what did that achieve because that just led back to the architect with the next version being faced with the same choice.

I just have one quick question that I hope you can help me with. In the end, was Zion destroyed or just the five ships?

All of the posted comments are very interesting. I don't know if Zion is another Matrix or not.

I do have a completely different perspective, however. What is the hierarchy of the machines? In the first movie we are shown what it looks like above the surface. It is explained that humans are "batteries" to provide power to the machines and that the matrix is a virtual world used to appease the human mind. So again, what machines are in charge? It seems to me that every character inside the matrix and every machine (sentinal) outside the matrix essentially works for the machine equivalent of a Department of Energy. There would then have to be much higher machines with a greater purpose. Where are they? What do they want to accomplish?

[20:29] me: you know
[20:29] my friend: know what?
[20:29] me: if the matrix is a computer program, it must be that some Turing machine can simulate it
[20:30] me: be it deterministic or non-deterministic, because non-deterministic Turing machines can be shown equivalent to deterministic Turing machines
[20:30] my friend: lol
[20:31] me: so all human minds can be simulated by a Turing machine - this claim is supported by the fact that agents can wipe a person's memory and reinsert them into the matrix, and that agent Smith can insert himself into a person's brain
[20:31] my friend: cant describe me
[20:31] me: thus all humans minds are deterministic, and must at any point in time be in a specific Turing machine configuration
[20:32] me: thus the Oracle can predict the future by looking at a particular Turing machine's (or person/agent/program whatever) current configuration, look at the machine's transition function, and calculate the next configuration for that machine
[20:32] my friend: dude man, not right...
[20:33] me: thusly it would imply that the human thinking process is an algorithmic one, and that there would be no need for "choice" as the Architect says
[20:33] me: so why are so many people rejecting the Matrix?
[20:34] me: unless the human mind is not deterministic, and not algorithmic, thus the Architect cannot create a perfect Matrix, no matter how many versions he runs it through
[20:34] my friend: oh
[20:34] me: which is what the film implies
[20:34] my friend: yes it does
[20:35] me: how, then, is the Oracle able to predict the future configurations of people plugged into the Matrix?
[20:35] me: how is agent Smith capable of transferring himself, a Turing machine, into a human host without the host rejecting him?
[20:36] my friend: lol
[20:37] me: it would seem reasonable that the non-algorithmic portion of your brain would remain dormant, and that everything that can be simulated by a Turing machine, is transferring into the Matrix when you log in
[20:37] me: and people who began to use that non-algorithmic portion of the brain would reject the Matrix
[20:38] me: that would mean the Oracle could predict anything that would happen within the Matrix itself
[20:38] me: and everything would be fine, except her powers extend outside of it too!
[20:39] me: so what do you think?
[20:39] my friend: i think
[20:39] my friend: that i am a tool

>>I just have one quick question that I hope you can help
>>me with. In the end, was Zion destroyed or just the five
>>ships?

Yeah, that confused me too.

This is definitely a film I need to see again.

Pretty interesting stuff around here...
First of all, the idea od a matrix inside a matrix is believable, but it doesn't quite convince me.
The idea of Neo beeing partly a machine makes sense, but I don't really think that the Wachowski would think of it that way, same thing happens with the matrix iside another matrix. Also, one important fact I think that you are all ignoring is the presence of Bane(Smith) with the sentinels and Neo.
I have yet to make a theory of my own, but I'll try to get one soon, I just need to reed some transcripts for the Architect conversation(I just saw the movie today)
As for what I can say now. I been thinking about why there must be a choice, and I've reached the conclusion that everything in a computer is a choice between two things. 1 or 0. So computers do need to make choices. I remember reading an article on Wired quite some time ago that stated that there were some cults who belived that god was a computer, and trying to analize it they reached the conclusion that eveything was a choice, true or false, 1 or 0. Anyway, that might explain the choosing thing. I might, and probably am wrong though.

The architect is a "computer and a program" made from programmers and we always leave the users of our systems with choices we believe they need to make and therefore program the programs with choices that we chose!

huh!

Neop: The Architect conversation is transcribed here: http://www.rinkworks.com/rinkforum/messages/73241.shtml

Well, you are going to boo me... I watched the movie last night, and honestly I can't say I was disappointed, though I didn't expect it to be great either. What I liked about the film was the music and special effects, that is it. After watching it, now I think the first film was way better (Keano's acting still sucks). What the hell the rave scene was all about? I have to say, that the film was cheap (I mean, tasteless). Do we have to watch digital desire flowing into a digital pussy? And what about the kiss in the bathroom? Is that all supposed to boost guys' egos and sexual desires?

To me all that mumbo-jumbo talk of Architect (God? who for some reason looked like Freud), Neo, Oracle, the counsel was like a filling in between the special effects.

As for the plot, there is nothing new about it. The idea of Matrix is derived from Eastern religious believes of Karma that we all are part of, only those who stand above their emotions and needs able to escape Karma and get freedom (Nirvana). So Neo went back, because he couldn't overcome his feelings towards his girlfriend and couldn't escape the Matrix, though he HAD THE CHOICE. As for the choice itself, it is a simple idea of choosing between good and evi again derived from religious believes. All people in Zeon choose to be in the Matrix. So Architect doesn't give a choice to Neo, because that is the only thing he can't control about him and other humans. We are born with the choice, we have the power, but like in the movie, many people don't realize what they are capable of and what power they have and it is kept in a secret from them... Read Buddhist and Hinduist writings and you will get the sense. Cheers.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet that the Council of Zion certainly seems in on the nature of the One and the relationship between humans and the Matrix.

I think they supported Morpheus over Commander Lock because they knew full well what choice Neo would have to make, and believed (as the Architect does) that it would be the only way for humans to survive.

I just saw it 1h ago (here in Paris) and let me just say this: the best part of the movie, based on the reaction of the audience, was the 10 seconds of Merovingian cursing in French. The whole audience was just cracked up :)

(And no, I won't translate it for you)

Dave,

You and I have exactly the same ideas about the movie. My justification for why the Architect offers Neo a choice might be something you'll agree with. Choice is what it all comes down to. Neo has to choose. If he does not make a choice then the problem of choice still exists. Hence he could still reject the matrix (both levels) had he not been given a chance to choose, if even only on a subconsious level, to enter the source and become disseminated throughout the matrix. However, by choosing to "destroy all of humanity," he has made a different choice than any other "one" before him has. I believe this was also planned; based on the dialogue of the Architect when Neo did not choose the source. What remains to be seen is what is intended now that neo has made that choice.

Now, here is one for you... is Agent Smith trying to take over the matrix? Everytime he dupicates himself, is it just for the single purpose of destroying Neo or is there something else planned?

I'm not wholly convinced about the Matrix within a Matrix theory although I concede I do not understand how Neo could have stopped the Sentinels at the end of the film.

The Architect explains that the One is a product of the imperfect nature of the implementation of The Matrix as in, the Machines can not stop the One from occuring at some point. However, they *can* attempt to keep it under control and, to do so, they disseminate the Prophecy so that everything goes as they intend it to. And so, Neo is no different to his 6 predecessors because he came to The Architect as the Machines had planned. The Architect explains that they have destroyed Zion 6 times now but they cannot get rid of it altogether as they need humans for their power, and as long as they need them for power and they use the Matrix for this end, there will always be the "anomaly", that is to say, the One. Therefore they allow the One to pick however many people (23, 26, I forget) to rebuild Zion from scratch so that they can keep the "resistance", as it were, under control the next time the anomaly occurs.

The underlying theme of this part of the trilogy is definitely choice; the first is about Birth, the second about Life, the third about Death, apparently, and so Choice being a major part of Life, it makes sense that this is what the film would focus upon. The most worrying thing, however, is that the film implies there is no real free will, no real choice, only the illusion of such a thing - when the Oracle offers Neo a candy, this is exactly they discuss.

There is hope, however, as Neo makes a choice that, we can assume, no other One has made - he chooses the door back into the Matrix to save Trinity. We can assume all the other Ones have chosen the other door as, in the first film, Morpheus talks of the previous One who "freed the first of us" which is exactly what the Architect was inviting Neo to do.

Also could someone explain why the Matrix hasn't undergone that "catastrophic system failure" that the Architect mentioned if Neo didn't choose to comply with the selection of the future founders of Zion?

What really "bakes my noodle" is whether the Oracle is good or bad, if she is good why is she seen as a threat (by the Merovingian (sic) etc) and why is she protected by that guy who is clearly not made of Matrix code?

The conclusion that it is all a Matrix within a Matrix would, I fear, turn quite a lot of the audience off, unless it is explained without being a total cop out, ala the infamous ending to many a children's story - "and then I woke up."

Interesting stuff... certainly helps to re-evaluate my initial dissatisfaction with the film's plot. I still think the sex scene was possible the worst I have ever seen... they looked so bored...

One point, when Agent Smith cuts himself I thought they were in the Matrix and not the 'real word' as everyone was wearing sunglasses and using their avatars (ie Neo in black cassock, Trinity in PVC etc) which have consistently been the stylistic indicators for Matrix-world. Or am I confused?

Jason

Answers to a few questions from above:

Only a few ships were destroyed at the end, not all of Zion... remember, they said they have 24 hours before Zion will be destroyed. The ships that were destroyed were those that planned the surprise attack, one of which had Smith aboard.

When the Architect responds to Neo calling the Oracle "the Oracle", he is downplaying her importance as in she is no Oracle, not that she is not the person whom he was referring.

I think the Architect's comment about the Oracle is open to interpretation. Because the first impression is that he is downplaying her role. But he may in actuality have been saying, no. We won't really know until the third one. It can go either way.

People keep saying Neo "chose" to save Trinity instead of Zion. Thereby implying that the Architect wanted him to choose the other door. If that's what he wanted, why on earth did he show him what was happening to Trinity in the first place?

As a famous French character from the Matrix once said, "choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without". Though it's not the impression i had at first, now i can't help but conclude that Neo actually did the only thing he could, that the Architect pushed him to make this decision.

Neo is still doing what the System wants him to do. The only one NOT doing what he's supposed to do is agent Smith... (he literally says so btw). I'm guessing that Smith, who realized in the first movie that the Matrix is about control, now realizes that that also applies to himself. But that's just a long shot.

What i can't figure out at all is, if Neo really is the sixth One, how the Keymaker fits into all this. Where he came from, why the Merovingian is holding him, why he got shot this time (did he also get shot the other five times?)

But i'm sure Revolutions will answer all that...

>Only a few ships were destroyed at the end, not all of Zion... remember, they said they have 24 hours before Zion will be destroyed.

Then remember that after this they said that once the machines had broken through it had been a slaughter. When Niobey's ship went down to look for survivors they found only one...

The one Smith had assimilated.

"Broken through" meant broken through the lines in the battle, not broken through into Zion. The name is Niobe, by the way. Also, while there are some Buddhist and Hindu ("Hinduist" would be something like "Islamicist") influences in the film, the primary religious context is definitely Gnostic, which is itself informed by a misunderstanding of Plato's "myth" of the cave in the Republic (and which is also directly influencing the Matrix). Taking a look at things, it looks to me that in particular an influence was PKDick's approach to Gnosticism (see e.g. The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, Time out of Joint, and VALIS).

I agree with the above post, there is defiately a strong gnostic context at work. Check out this website, it is very interesting and ties in the philosophies and religious aspects which shape the films:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Its quite a difficult read but arises many interesting points, some which I agree with some I don't. Take a look.

I'm intrigued right now by the potential parallels between the Oracle and the Merovingian. Both seem to be "higher" programs in the Matrix, not humans. Both have knowledge and abilities that exceed the standard construct. Both make an explicit point about giving sweets to people, which in the Merovingian's case bears a viral payload. What's "baking my noodle" is what code the Oracle inserted into Neo, with her "have a coookie" in the Matrix, and "have some candy" Reloaded. I don't know if her culinary gifts to Neo are giving him machine-related abilities (i.e. zapping the sentinels) or affecting his free will somehow, but one thing seems clear: this movie series will make me think twice before having dessert from now on.

another stupid possibility:
Perphaps when Neo is infected by agent smith(when he fights hundred smiths), a bogus zion is created and hence we can see smith in real form and Neo could stop the senitels

Yeah I am a sucker After reading all f**king possiblities

This is a great place for discussion.

Definitely alot going on in this movie -- much more than I was initially preparing myself for.

I was puzzled about the cookie from the first movie and I'm surprised noone else has said anything about it.

Remember in the first movie, she offers him the cookie, telling him "by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel right as rain."

if the merovingian can change code with the cake, then i would presume the oracle can change neo by giving him certain things to eat. To what end...i'm not sure...she's an ambiguous character....

The Architect - Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster

OH! This just hit me. If all these people are rejecting the matrix, but machines still want to harness their power, then the machines could have set up layers of matrices to allow rejectors to believe they have escaped but keep them in the matrix. After a while Zion gets to big and the machines may want to either put them back in the original matrix???

"What i can't figure out at all is, ... how the Keymaker fits into all this. Where he came from, why the Merovingian is holding him"

I remember the keymaker saying something like "that is how it had to happen" when he got shot. All through the movie I assumed he was a program. After he died I assumed he was a program created by the Mother of the Matrix to lead The One into eliminating 'the anomolies'.

After reading all these posts, I am begininng to suspect that it was not Merovingian who held the keymaker, but Persephone. This may not make sense at first, but in Greek mythology, Persephone was the wife of the God of Hades, and she lived half of her life in Hades and half of her life in the land of the living. This brought me to the conclusion that she might be the Mother of the Matrix, on the one hand longing to kiss Neo and being envious of Trinity (who is a real person) while on the other hand furthering the goals of the Architect.

For those who believe Neo is a machine or program, read this:
http://www.rinkworks.com/rinkforum/messages/73242.shtml

as a sidenote, I can only agree with Dave's original entry, while I have read ALL comments and found every single one VERY interesting, thank you :)

> I remember the keymaker saying something like "that is how it had to happen" when he got shot.

Ah yes, but wasn't that also how it was supposed to happen with the other 5? Or did they get a free ride into the source while Neo had to fight his way in? Did he get shot before or is Neo's case unique (as the Oracle and Morpheus seem to imply?)

Aah, so many questions, so few answers...
Gotta love these movies :-)

Regarding Agent Smith cutting himself, I had the impression that it was because this was the first time he was "human" in the "real world" and he was fascinated by the sight of his own blood which he never had before as a program in the matrix.

I got this from his slightly crazed look as he was doing the cutting.

This list is so long, I can't look now to see if anyone caught that Zion's inhabitants live inside a huge cylinder, and the prisoners of the matrix live on the outside of a huge cylinder (actually more than one cylinder as shown in the first movie.)
To those that are familiar with Chicago-area landmarks, you might find see a resemblance between Zion and the big-house or Round-House at Stateville Prison in Joliet, Illinios. Given where the Wachowski brothers come from, I don't think that was an accident.

One other thought... following up on Mark's comment (May 27 at 1:37 PM)... the movie left a lot of possibilities for the conclusion, and the thoughts of how the third movie might play out doesn't do anything to help "free our minds!"

Perhaps one ending is as suggested before... that the Matrix is recursive. Look at Patrick McGoohan's "Prisoner" series from 1968. Not quite recursive, but McGoohan implies that each person makes their own prison.

Who is the Merovingian?
The W. Brothers left us several clues in the movie, so that those who pay close attention can understand who the Merovingian is, or was.

Clue #1
Notice the number of the floor in the elevator hallway as Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity enter the Merovingian's "lair." The number is 101. If you pay attention in the original Matrix, Neo's apartment number is 101. By the way, 101 is a binary representation of the number 5. If you start counting from 0, it is the 6th integral increment of a series. I'll cover that in a future post.

Clue #2
The Merovingian can write program, or a step further, rewrite the Matrix as he sees fit. Sound familiar?

Clue #3
Listen closely to what Persephone tells Neo in the bathroom. "A long time ago when we first came here, things were so different. He was so different. He was like you."

The Merovingian is The One. Atleast, he is an older version of the one. He knows and understands why Neo has come to see him. He knows why they need the KeyMaker. He knows about the Oracle, who he calls the fortune teller. He knows all this because he walked in Neo's shoes once before as well.

I find the matrix inside matrix theory very believable...

I have read a page, who's author said that he thinks the reason for Neo falling into coma after encounter with the Sentinels is because he is too "old". Just as Morpheus said in the firts movie: "The mind can't be freed once it reaches a certain age". Neo finds it very hard to believe that that is also the Matrix when he feels "something isn't right here"...

I admit that the "matrix within a matrix" scenario was the first thing that I thought of while watching the second movie. And I sincerely hope that the writers don't fulfill that expectation because that was the first conclusion that I came to. It's too easy, and I agree, cheesy in the "so, this was all just a dream within a dream!" way. I hope the writers have considered that the "matrix within a matrix" conclusion would be heavily suspected - and because of that, have chosen to do something new.

On another note: Neo and The One are different to me. Neo is a human. The One is a program that a human can execute. Neo had to be convinced to execute the program "The One" in the first movie by choosing to know that he was it "from balls to bones". But in the second, at the end, he is back to not doing so.

Completely Wild Speculaton: maybe Neo will become the Architect of a new Matrix and Trinity will become the new Oracle.

Hoo, boy

(chuckles)

Just a thought on the matrix within a matrix theory,

If the so called "second level" matrix is a method of controling dissedent elements. Then logically the machines would have in place a third level of the matrix to control the dissedent elements within the second level. The second level should have the same flaws as the first.
Thus if neo is to break out of the second level will he escape into another yet another matrix?

> Thus if neo is to break out of the second level will he escape into another yet another matrix?

Ah yes, nothing but turtles all the way down my friend :-) I must agree it would be a rather predictable and unsatisfying conclusion. But with Neo stopping the Sentinels, it seems like the only available option (unless you want to make him paranormal in the real world...)

On another note, if you caught the trailer for Revolutions, you might have noted that Neo and Smith are alone in their scenes - there is no shot whatsoever of Neo with Trinity or Morpheus or anyone else. Just Neo and Smith. Maybe they stay unconscious for most of the movie and the fight takes place whereever their minds have gone to now. Wether that be a next level matrix or not... i think they'll remain unconscious-looking for most of Revolutions.

And since noone since to be answering dave's original question:
> The knot I'm still trying to unravel is why the Architect offers Neo a choice. Why does he have to give Neo that choice?

He didn't.
He gave him the illusion of choice.
He knew perfectly well Neo would choose Trinity.

im gunna go totally away from reloaded for a minute, as i watched the first one this morning as a refresher! At the end when neo hangs up the phone as says he is going to "show them a world with out you" i presume he means the matrix. But this implies he is about to destroy the matrix?! Hence no sequel needed?! Im probably missing something here (massive).

what im trying to ask, is what happens when neo hangs the phone up? Anything nothing?! As it says system failure??!

>> Enrique, saying The Merovingian is The One
I don't agree, why would "The One" turn evil, why would he withhold the keymaker?
Is it because he is an old program and so destined to become evil... I don't know...

But I really doubt he was ever "The One". I am however open to the possibility, since Persephone says "he was like you", which is a big clue...

I love this movie, it's SOOO great :D

Okay, so there are more than 70 comments in the thread right now, and I will freely admit that I've only skimmed them. I might be treading over old ground here.

I think the "matrix within a matrix" idea is bogus and wrong, for four reasons. First, if what we think of as the real world was just another part of the matrix, then it invalidates the entire first film, and also sucks the sense of jeopardy out of the coming battle in the third. It would be a disaster, from a storytelling perspective.

Secondly, it's been done before. Hell, it was done on Star Trek or something. I don't think the W. brothers would stoop to pulling their plot points from old teevee shows.

Third, and this is the most important: I don't think it would work.

Here's the story as I understand it. I'm not 100% convinced that what I say here is the gospel truth, but I think it's a darned good story, so I'm gonna go with it for now.

The Architect (a computer program so powerful it seems like magic to us) designed Matrix 1.0. It was a perfect world. (Smith talks about this at some length in the first film, in the interrogation scene with Morpheus.) They put all the people in it, and it was a disaster. Entire crops were lost. Because the people inside knew, somehow, that they were living in a dream world. They kept trying to wake up.

This is not because the world of Matrix 1.0 was too perfect, although that may have played a part. It was because the people were instinctively able to recognize that they had no choice in the matter.

So along comes Matrix 2.0. (This part is a little fuzzy.) Either some of the people actually succeeded in waking up from the Matrix, or the Oracle came up with the idea of allowing some of them to wake up. Either way, Matrix 2.0 incorporates the idea that some people can escape the system into the real world. The *real* real world, not inside the matrix. They escape and live in Zion. Hell, maybe the machines even built Zion for them before they got there.

As long as the resistance--the people outside the matrix, the Zionites--is small, they serve as a useful safety valve but pose no real danger to the matrix. But when they reach a certain critical mass, they start to threaten the matrix from outside, and must be destroyed.

At this point, the machines take the One aside and make him a proposition. The matrix can only work if he cooperates with them... but if he refuses to cooperate, humanity faces extinction. In the past, the One has choses to save humanity by allowing Zion to be destroyed, every man, woman, and child. The One then goes into the matrix and selects 23 people--16 women and 7 men--and frees them. They form the core of the resistance.

In Neo's time, there's a legend and a prophecy. The legend tells of a man born inside the matrix who had special powers. He freed the first of the resistance. Eventually he died, and the Oracle prophesied his return. This combination of legend and prophecy has played out five times now.

How could this work if Zion were merely another part of the matrix? If humans inside the matrix could feel, deep down in some mysterious way, that they had no choices, then those in the other part of the matrix would surely be able to feel the same thing, and they'd be right back to square one. It's much more plausible--hah, can you believe I said that?--to think that the machines allow the resistance to actually exist outside the matrix than to postulate an infinite regression of matrices. Of course, that would fit in with the chapter on nihilism in Neo's book in the first movie... but it would make a lousy story.

The fourth reason I don't buy the "matrix within a matrix" idea, of course, is that that's is exactly what we're *supposed* to think at this point... therefore it must not be true.

Now, what's the Oracle's role in all this? The question has often been posed, how can the Oracle predict the actions of human beings unless they're deterministic? I don't think the Oracle predicts a damn thing. I think she manipulates. Neo said near the end of the first movie that the Oracle told him he wasn't the one. (That's not really true. She said he had the gift, but it looked like he was waiting for something. The next life, maybe, who knows. Ha ha.) Morpheus said she told him exactly what he needed to hear. So the Oracle doesn't predict. She guides. Her predictions come true because she set them in motion.

And she told Trinity that she would fall in love with the One.

Now *that* one really bakes your noodle, doesn't it? Neo chose to doom the matrix when he saved Trinity. And he chose to save Trinity because the Oracle arranged for it to be so.

The destruction of the matrix, on its face, means death for all of humanity. And Neo chose to destroy the matrix, because the Oracle arranged for it to be so.

Kinda makes you wonder whose side the Oracle is really on, huh?

(On preview: sorry for the overlong post. I guess I had a lot to say.)

Merovingian:
"I don't agree, why would "The One" turn evil, why would he withhold the keymaker?
Is it because he is an old program and so destined to become evil... I don't know..."

Well to play devil's advocate, if he had been the one, then he knows what the consequences of Neo getting the key are and he might be trying to break the cycle. However, he states something like "I outlasted your predecessors and I will outlast you". I wonder if he might have been one of the programmers that designed the machines that eventually seized control. Now he is trying to get control back. That would explain his namesake anyway…

Who is the Seraph?

First thing to remember is that in Jewish and Christian beliefs, a seraph is an angel of God. Specifically, it's role is first defined in the book of Genesis. The Seraph defends the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve are expelled from it. Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden because they ate from the tree of knowledge.

With the background stuff out of the way, let's take a look at some of the things the movie tells us about Seraph.

Clue #1
The first thing Neo noticed about the Seraph is his yellow glow. We think he is a program, but is he really?? None of the other programs in the matrix have this yellow glow. The Seraph is something different, but not enough is said in the movie to explain what.

Clue #2
After Neo fights Seraph, Seraph said he fought Neo to know if he is truely the One. He explains that, "you do not really know someone, until you fight them." One of the things I've learned about the Matrix movies is that everything that is said has many hidden messages behind it. This one is easy though. How would the Seraph recognize the One by fighting him? It can be safely assumed that they have fought at another time.

Clue #3
The Seraph tells Neo that he protects what matters most. At that point, he opens the door to the Oracle. Does this mean that the Seraph protects the Oracle? Not much is said, but from his actions we can assume that this is what he meant. So why does the Oracle need protection? Better yet, from whom does the Oracle need protection? And why didn't the Oracle need protection in the last movie? Why is she in hiding? :-) But we're talking about Seraph here, so we'll leave the Oracle alone for a future post. Anyway, Seraph pulls Oracle away just before Agent Smith arrives. Now that is a good body guard!

Clue #4
The Oracle never answers Neo when he asks if Seraph and the Oracle are programs. Remember, the Oracle's anser to Neo's statement.

NEO: "If I had to guess, I'd say you were a program from the machine world, like him [referring to Seraph]"
ORACLE: "So far so good."

That's a far cry from "Yes, Neo. You are correct." The great thing about the way the Matrix story is told, is that you should never assume anything just because Neo says it. And the Oracle humoring Neo is not the same as her saying that Neo is correct. Neo, as we all know, has been wrong lots of times. Neo thought he wasn't the One in the first movie. Because the Oracle does not answer Neo's question directly and specifically, we cannot assume that either she or Seraph are programs.

The Seraph is a guardian. Whether or not he is a program, I am not sure. I'm pretty sure his main purpose is to protect the Oracle. He also knows Neo, although Neo does not recognize him. I am sure he will play a big role in the next movie, I'm just not sure what.

I agree with what Jeff said in this post,May 28, 2003 10:42 AM, that the oracle sets events in motion, because in the first matrix she tells him not to worry about the vase, and then he goes and knocks it over. she says i told you not to worry, but would you have knocked it over if i hadn't have said anything?
does this mean then that Neo and co. have no choice because as they visit the oracle for ideas she just guides them to do what she wants.

just saw it again :">

a few things that were said that eluded me the first time (probably not literally correct):

Oracle to Neo: "You have to make a choice, either you can trust what i tell you or you do not", then she offers him the red pill/candy, which he accepts

Oracle to Neo: "I care about the future. And the only way to get there is together"

Merovingian to Neo: "go tell the fortune teller (oracle) that her time is almost at an end"

Smith to Neo: "Something happened... i don't know what exactly... something was copied, overwritten..." -> maybe some of the code of The One was written into Smith, a program?

Also, the freeway is number 101, as is the floor on which the Merovingian is having lunch, and the room in which Neo goes looking for the Oracle. There were probably some more occurances of this number - gotta keep those eyes open :-)

that's all for now

oh, and one i almost forgot:

An agent to the Keymaker: "You are no longer required. Your only function now is to be deleted."

And on support for the onion matrix idea, Neo gets another spoon - there still is no spoon? :-)

What I still can't figure out is is the oracle is really the mother of the Matrix. The architect says that the mother of the matrix is "an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche". By talking about the human psyche it makes me think about the oracle, but then, when Neo says it, the architect answers with a very ambigous "Please". Now, supposing that the Oracle is not the mother of the matrix, then I can only think of Phersephony to be the mother, which in a certain way also makes sense. it isn't quite clear what Phersephony is, but it seems like she's beeen with the Merovingian for a long time, so i'd say that she is a program, in which case it would be the only program with feelings. Which is exactlly what the architect says that stops humans from beeing perfect. So it would make sense that she is the mother.

I just hope that the Wachowski brothers decided to give Phersephony feelings for a reason, and not just to add a small love story to the plot.

"in which case it would be the only program with feelings"
I hadn't caught that before, but it reinforces my comments I made (see above: May 27, 2003 12:42 PM).

You know who I think is going to be important that no one is talking about is Niobe... Anyone spent time speculating on her?

On a whole different topic, here's a minor thing that has been bugging me:
When Neo first left the matrix and was on board the Nebuchanezzar, all that they had to eat was 'snot': something that looked like creamed corn. Why do they suddenly have all this food in Zion? I'm pretty sure I have just forgotten something from the first movie which I last saw over 2 years ago.

Regarding what Neop said about the "very ambigous 'Please,'" I came away from that with the impression that the Architect was mocking the hubris of calling the Oracle by that name. Imagine for a second that you went to high school with somebody. You got drunk together, you bailed each other out of jail. Years later you hear about how that person is calling herself "The Oracle." What's your reaction? "Oh, please." That's how I read it. But I've only seen it once, so I reserve the right to pretend I never said any of this stuff.

As for Persephone, I can't shake the feeling that she gave Neo something when she kissed him. In the chocolate orgasm scene, the Merovingian established that code can be inserted into a person's program when that person eats something. Of course, we knew that already; Neo swallowed the red pill. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but when Neo kissed Persephone, I would have sworn that I heard some kind of hissing or sparking noise way back on the soundtrack, something that made me think something was happening on a software level. Sort of an HTTP PUT kind of thing.

The thing that struck me about the first movie was the economy of it, the way even throwaway lines provided foreshadowing of future plot directions. For the W. brothers to throw something as random as the "kiss meee" scene into the movie for no reason at all strikes me as wrong. I know something important went on there; I just don't know what it was.

What about th biggest question of all, how does trinity and neo and morphoeus go to da loo!!?? in their fancy mindmeldy chairs, i noticed no poo bag or wee wee bottle. If you get shot in thematrix you bleed in real life right.., so it would b lodgical to assume that when nature calls in the matrix it does so in real life. This means that they would wake up kinda messy, unles they hav super genetically engineered bladders that mean they don't need to go or something.

k slightly more seriously, I don't buy the theory that machines need humands for energy. It doesn't make sense. People don't produce energy they just turn food energy into other energy, very inafficianty. There are far better ways of turning sugar into electricty than using people, so y bother.

There must b another reason..

My question is this (well actually need to clear this up). Was Niboe(Jada Pinkett-Smith) ship the one blown up, and her crew collapsed while still in the Matrix, or was it another ship. I believe Niobe's ship was the one that saved Neo in the end, and that she and her crew survived the fall of Zion. Am I right?

No, it was another ship. Niobe and the Ham survived.

Also, the fall of Zion hasn't happened yet. The deal was that Lock sent five ships out to counter-attack the machines, in an effort to slow them down, or maybe even stop them entirely. Before they got into position, Bane (a.k.a. Smith) fired off an EMP that disabled all five ships, scuttling the counter-attack plan. Bane was the only survivor. He was aboard the Hammurabi with the crew of the Neb at the end.

The ship that was destroyed was a different one; I forget which. (The Medina maybe? Heh heh.) There were two ships involved on the assault on the Source, the Neb and the other one. The other one was destroyed, killing the guys who were trying to shut down the power grid around the building, necessitating Trinity's entry into the Matrix and Neo's dilemma.

I loved that whole sequence, by the way. The way Morpheus's speech about how he doesn't believe in chance was intercut with the pilot walking across the collapsing catwalk and impaling the operator. That little thing made me question the conceit behind the whole movie.

Speaking of which, I also loved the fact that Morpheus, as it turns out, is believed to be kind of a whack-job by a lot of the resistance. His belief in the prophecy and the One isn't exactly universally held. I really liked that little bit of development at the beginning of the movie.

I am totally convinced about the "matrix inside the matrix".. but I have added a tweak:

* "Reloaded Title": Reloaded stands for being inside again. Maybe there is the possibility that now we have TWO ZIONS the real in which you have real humans and the "fake one" whis is know where NEO is placed: Of course this could be very easy to notice if you didn't know the "real zion" but hell... you have a guy outside (in the reali zion) who is "real eyes that can tell how it looks like...".

* This all is about on how your mind perceives what is real.. WHAT IS REAL? is Zion REAL? how you define REAL? this is very clear...

* Scene of the machines: The oldman takes "real"NEO to the machine chamber and tells "no-one-knows how does this work" maybe this means that REALLY no one knows..

Does anyone know what the Merovingian's cursing translates to in English(assuming he was cursing)?

Not sure if its already been mentioned here already, far to many comments, but I rekon Neo is eventually not going to be Human, he is a control program of the outer Zion contianing Matrix. Perhaps a reason why the Arcitect had to give him his "if" statement. He was a machine too.

Not sure if its already been mentioned here already, far to many comments, but I rekon Neo is eventually not going to be Human, he is a control program of the outer Zion contianing Matrix. Perhaps a reason why the Arcitect had to give him his "if" statement. He was a machine too.

re: cursing

my limited french knowledge picked out the words "shit", "duck", and "sea".

I actually agree with Jeff about the ambigous please. Most people who go watch the matrix won't notice it, and will probably think that indeed he was talking about the oracle. I can't imagine a way in which the third movie will tell most of the audience about this ambigous please, so I guess the oracle it is.

But I still think that there's a slight chance that Phersephony is the one the architect is refering to. There must be something that explains a program having feelings, and I also agree that the kiss scene probably had something else we jsut don't know about. Maybe Phersephony doesn't have feelings and it was just a trick a program was using to help Neo? Maybe some code was transfered through the kiss? There are just too many posibilities, I guess we'll just have to wait for Revolutions.

RIGHT OUT OF THE PARK......

I think we can assume that Trinity is pregnant after that sex scence....

Which brings me to the point Morph.. makes in film 1 - " We gave BIRTH to AI " but wouldn't this AI need a palce to live where people could go and comminicate with it - Something like the MATRIX a virtual world.

So could Trinity be pregnant with an new program so to speak, after all Neo's code has been messed with - so Trinity could be a mother to some kind of evolving program.

Also when Neo went through the white door he went to a star field. Anyone know the constalation?
Does this mean they are in space - like dark city ?

I really wonder why the hell does the woman need to eat the cake to get some code in her? It's like you would have to drag your mouse through "minimize" and "restore" buttons before you could click the "X" close button...

Also I really want to know, if anybody knows why do they actually need to get to the phone to get out of the matrix and why a cellular phone isn't enough...
(if not for anything else - the first movie wouldn't have existed without running for the phones, so they needed a reason to run).

The third think i wanna know is why the hell doesn't Neo just fly away from those 100 Smiths amd other figths. What is fighting worth if you can just leave and ignore those smiths.

Has anyone thought about the kid that keeps on following Neo? I remember a conversation like:

kid: "you saved me man"
neo: "i keep telling you, you found me kid"
kid: "yeah but you set me free man"
neo: "you set yourself free"

could there be something behind that?

ya, and i wana know y when eo fights he deosn't just go all super speed fighty like in the first movie, adn y doesn't he just do that hing where he flys inside agents and blows em up.

Also the watsisname guy protecting the oracle i think was in the first movie. Remember the lil kid bending the spoon... Also that guy doesn't protect the oracle. He said he protects what is precious. This could mean the matrix, it could mean humanity, or in some round about matrix style way it could mean trinitys baby ( which we don't actualy know exists yet).

about the oracle, there is certainly some significance to her saying more than once "i like candy". If she was refering to the "red pill" does this mean that she 2 wants to b free of the matrix?

o and what was it that neo did to smith in da first film, i can't remember. Was smith the guy that he went inside of and made explode..?

There French spurting out of Merovingian's mouth is pretty much an incoherent string of French swear words "putain de bordelle de merde" etc. has no literal translation but I can leave it to anyone's imagination to interpret the sentance using any basic english swear words.

"Also the watsisname guy protecting the oracle i think was in the first movie" - Matt

I think in the first movie you see a blind man sat by the lift entrance which goes to the Oracle's floor - Whats intresting is that Morph. nods to this guy and he nods back ( not so blind ) i think this is same guy who is Oracle's guardain in reloaded but in a different guise.

opps forgot to put this on last post

The women in Oracles apartment looks like Links wife in reloaded ??
anyone agree...

Yes.

"I think in the first movie you see a blind man sat by the lift entrance which goes to the Oracle's floor - Whats intresting is that Morph. nods to this guy and he nods back ( not so blind )"

I was just thinking about him last night. I don't know enough Greek mythology to be sure, but I've been acting under the assumption that he's an allusion to something. "Temet Nosce," which was over the Oracle's door on a sort of plaque thing, was also written above the entrance to the Oracle at Delphi. (Interestingly, the phrase was on the *outside* of the Delphic Oracle, but on the *inside* of the other Oracle, but I think we can chalk it up to the fact that the Oracle wouldn't have been able to point it out if it had been outside. "Come here for a minute. Yeah, out here. Into the hall. What? No, just come here. See that? Means 'know thyself.' Now let's go back in. *Yes,* that's all I wanted. Sheesh.")

Anyway, I just assumed that the blind guy in the hallway was an allusion to some blind mythic figure associated with the Delphic Oracle. Homer, maybe, although it's been too many years since I studied my classics.

Jeff > How does Neo stop the machines inside Zion in the end?

Why does Neo go into a choma? If it was an EMP, then it should not affect him, because as the archietect says, Neo is human?

Also, I know that in "Enter the Matrix" Persephone also asks to be kissed before helping Ghost&Niobi, so perhaps it is indeed correct that her kiss transfers some program or something to the receiver, I don't know... I also don't really know what perpose this has.

Awesome movie :)

"How does Neo stop the machines inside Zion in the end?"

I don't know. I don't think we're supposed to know yet. I think what I saw were sentinels rushing toward Neo, Neo standing his ground, and then the sentinels shorting out. I think I remember seeing electrical arcs sparking out when they fell to the ground. But I'm not completely sure, because it went by so quickly.

This, if true, tells me two things. First, it wasn't an EMP. We've seen an EMP before, in the first movie. It's big and loud and violent. It expands outward like a wave, and its effect is visible.

Second, if the whole thing had taken place inside the matrix, I don't think we would have gotten the electrical sparking discharge thing. I think the squiddies would have just... stopped. Like bullets do when Neo does his thing.

What we've learned so far is that the relationships between the various offscreen characters in the movie are more complicated than we realized at first. We don't know who's fighting on whose side. We think the Oracle is helping the resistance, but we don't know for sure; if her actions ultimately lead to the destruction of the matrix and the extinction of humanity, then maybe she's not a good guy after all. We think the Architect is trying to enslave humanity, but if humanity can't survive without the machines, then maybe he's not as bad as we think. And we don't know where the Merovingian and Persephone fit in to this. Seraph and the Keymaker are still mysteries to us.

My pet theory right now is that the resistance, and most especially Neo, are just pawns in a much larger, much more subtle, and much more slow-moving conflict between machines, or factions of machines. Which means that the sentinels were probably stopped by one of the factions that wants Neo to survive. Probably the faction that's trying to wipe out humanity. They want him to bring down the matrix, because they know it will lead inevitably to death for all humans. So they have to keep him alive.

How's that for irony? If Neo, the hero, does the hero thing, the result will be the end of the world. He's Moses without a promised land, leading his people straight into oblivion.

As to why he's in a coma... I don't know. I don't think we're supposed to know why either he or Smith/Bane is in a coma right now. Remember, we've basically walked out halfway through the movie, and we won't get to see the end for six months. Which pisses me off. But in a good way. Because, first, it's nice to have something to look forward to. But also because I think it's gonna take me six months to absorb everything that the first half of the movie threw at me.

I just finished "Enter the Matrix"... There is a cutscene with the new Oracle (the other actor died in 2001, so my guess is that we'll see a new actor playing The Oracle in Revolutions), here is a summary of that conversation:

After saving Morpheus on the filmed Freeway scene and blowing up the power plant Niobi runs into Seraph because the Oracle has a message for her. She fights Seraph and then talks to the new Oracle (Mary Alice). The Oracle explains to Niobe that the Merovingian was angry that she helped Neo find and retrieve the Keymaker so he stole her original body and this was her new form. She told Niobe that Neo found the Source but in essence it was the end. Neo's MIND AND BODY were seperated from the Matrix after he went out of the source meaning his MIND was still in the Matrix while his body was in the real world!

This, my friends, explains EVERYTHING :D At least how he could stop those machines :)

Links:
http://www.moviehole.net/news.php?newsid=1655
http://forums.killermovies.com/f42/t6210.html

>How's that for irony? If Neo, the hero, does the hero
>thing, the result will be the end of the world. He's Moses
>without a promised land, leading his people straight into
>oblivion.

This crossed my mind too. In the Revolutions preview (well, one of them anyway...), there's that shot where Neo and Smith are running at each other for a final brawl. The preview cuts to Morpheus, who says -- in a sort of surprised way -- "He fights for us."

Assuming the two scenes are really connected at all, what if Morpheus *isn't* referring to Neo -- but to Agent Smith?

/noodle baking

"then maybe she's not a good guy after all"
Its not a matter of good and bad. It is simply the fact that everyone and everything is part of the system. Neo, the oracle, the arcatect, the agents, hell even the machines, are all just part of the system. Neither one is anymore good or bad than the last. The only one who would APPEAR to no longer be a part of the system is smith because he is the only one apparently not doing what he is suppost to. ( and neo was suppost to save trinity, otherwise the arcetect wou;dn't hav told him about her).

Matt, when I talked about good and bad, I was talking about the audience's perspective. Of course there's good and bad; in the first movie, the humans were good and the machines were bad. The second movie blurs the line a little bit, or maybe a lot. But there are still antagonists and protagonists. Figuring out who's who is, right now, with half of the sequel behind us, both endlessly fun and proveably impossible.

some remarks,

didn't anyone noticed that when Smith cut his hand (in the real world) he didn't felt a thing, no pain no nothing. So the "matrix in matrix" explenation sounds believable.

also, they (the agents and the Merovingian)
talked about Neo as "only human". I think there also other program's trying to destroy (or take over) the matrix.

btw how in the hell did Persephone know that trinity and Neo are a couple? "I want you to kiss me like you (Neo) kiss here (Trinity)"

a couple things --

the spoon -- when it is presented to neo (in reloaded), it's mangled but not bent. (but this could just be that it had been bent, but is currently straight). does this imply that the kid figured out that his powers work in zion, too? .. implying that either zion is still in the matrix OR powers in the matrix can correspond to powers outside the matrix. (explaining neo's EMP-like powers at the end of reloaded)

the architect's room -- anyone else notice that the screens in the architect's room look similar the screens we saw in the first movie (chapter 6 on the dvd) when neo is brought in for questioning?

(i hope "revolutions" lives up to the thought we're putting into "reloaded".)

THE SPOON! This would add evidence that there is an outer matrix. The bald kid figured it out and he sent the spoon to Neo as a hint. Doesn't Neo repeat the line, "There is no spoon" upon getting this gift?

As for arguments that having the matrix within a matrix would lead to an infinite maze of matrices, you have to remember that only 99.9% (and they are probably rounding) reject the matrix. What if that is the same number for the next matrix, and so on.

If you have a population of 10 billion or so, that would leave less than 10K people rejecting the second matrix, not enough people to be a threat. Especially with the sentinels roaming around doing their thing.

but if there is a second matrix, maybe there are no sentanols. In terms of being good or bad, if you see the entier system of th matrix (even if it the ony way humanty can survive) as bad then everyone adn everything accept smith is bad. Not by fault but bacause everyone and everything has thier own role to play within the system.

>Doesn't Neo repeat the line, "There is no spoon" upon getting this gift?

No he doesn't...
I have it on my HD, just checked it :-)
(any other look-up questions, feel free to ask)

Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?

Small addition to the matrix-within-a-matrix idea: if there really is a matrix level above zion, there is no proof at all for this second matrix to also be controlled by machines. the man-versus-machine war could be an invention of whoever instealled that matrix. it could be humans controlling humans. hell, it could be a bunch of humans toying around with just neo. Not that i really believe it, but it could be :-)

In response to 'b' concerning the spoon...my impression of the spoon given to Neo was that it had been made by the orphan kid. Being hand made out of what I assume is iron accounts for its "mangled" or rough appearance. I do not think it is meant to show Neo that they can use "powers" outside of The Matrix, but more of a symbol of connection between Neo and the orphan or maybe Neo and humanity.

Two quotes from a 1999 chat with the wachowski bros, i'll leave the interpretation up to you...

> What exactly was the mirror made of? Was it the same stuff they injected into Morpheus? Why silver?
WachowskiBros: The mirror is actually a mirror. When Neo sees it, it's a hallucination, but it's the direct result of the pill Morpheus has given Neo. Reflections in general are a significant theme in the film. The ideas of worlds within worlds..

> What is the significance of Neo eating the Oracle's cookie?
WachowskiBros: There was a piece cut out of the movie that explained the significance more. It's hard to explain.

Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?

well.. just a ramdom guess but if you look at every next letter its I01 nearenough 101. and s 4 6, (smith for 6...?) god i am board

"Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?"

If you take every next letter it is I 0 1, which is this whole 101 thing again, accept mixed in, like it is mixed into another code.

but guys 101 is also lol. me thinks the movie guys are evil..they is laghing right now

"Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?"

If you take every next letter it is I 0 1, which is this whole 101 thing again, accept mixed in, like it is mixed into another code.

but guys 101 is also lol. me thinks the movie guys are evil..they is laghing right now

"Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?"

If you take every next letter it is I 0 1, which is this whole 101 thing again, accept mixed in, like it is mixed into another code.

but guys 101 is also lol. me thinks the movie guys are evil..they is laghing right now

After reding WHOLE this weblog, now I realy feel like falling down the rabbit hole !

"Btw the license plate of agent smith's car is IS0416... is that a bible code? Some other code? Can anyone look it up?"

Well, it's *not* a reference to the book of Isaiah. (Try spelling THAT one when you haven't been to Sunday school in 15 years.) Isaiah chapter 4 only has 6 verses, so there's no 4:16.

"Please allow me to introduce myself - I am man of wealth and taste - i've been around for a long long time" Rolling Stones.

Merovingian is the ruler of an underworld/inferno (building lined with explosives). He is a daemon. Married to Persephone (wife of Hades)... too easy.

ian

Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the
emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which
case this is the sixth version.

Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me,
or no one knows.
****************************

the zion council knows...

isn't the council comprised of "23 individuals, 16 female 7 male", all quite old? might these council members be those persons picked by the last chosen one after zion was destroyed for the 5th time?

Marcus, I don't see any reason to believe that the Zion council should have any clue about the Architect's revelation. (First of all I don't think there were 23 of them, but I don't know so let's set that aside for a minute.)

The One is asked/given the opportunity/forced to choose 23 people *from* *the* *matrix* to form the core of a new resistance. Not 23 people from Zion, but 23 people from the matrix. Each time, he has freed them and told them they are the first humans to escape the matrix. He hasn't told them the truth.

Remember what Morpheus said in the first movie? There was a man born inside who could remake the matrix as he saw fit. He freed the first of us. When he died, the Oracle prophesied his return.

All these things are true. The man born inside, from Morpheus's perspective, was the previous One, Neo's immediate predecessor. He did free the first of them, "them" being the members of the current resistance.

And he never told anyone. So when he died, his secret died with him. So no, no one knows. Not even the Council, not even if they were the first ones freed this time around.

hmm, u know that registration plate. It is not isiah 4 vs 16, it is isiah 4 1-6 and it defiantly ties fits

Jerusalem's Glorious Future
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,

"We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach."

The Renewal of Zion
2 In that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.

3And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

sry but a random quote from the bible saying the "renewal of zion" thats more than coincidence sureley.

Good catch, Matt. I can't believe I stared at the book of Isaiah and didn't see that.

Ok, riddle me this. Isn't the blonde in the Chocolate Cake scene in Reloaded the same one who appears in Mouse's training program in the original Matrix and the porno magazine that Mouse is reading in the Matrix when he gets killed?

That, I think, would tend to prove the Matrix-within-Matrix theory, since it would be hard to explain her ubiquitousness otherwise.

i don't buy the matrix within a matrix theory -

equate neo to case in neuromancer and the architect and the oracle to the wintermute and neuromancer AI's.

prediction for revolutions: "the ghosts are gonna mix it up tonight lady"

It seems to easy, Matrix within Matrix

One thing is for sure... Revolutions has A LOT of explaining to do :)

I seem to recall the Architect mentioning the Oracle's greatest contribution - something to the effect of giving each human a choice, "even on the subconscious level", will make them accept the Matrix. A very small number of people will reject the Matrix (in my opinion, this is Neo and his five predecessors exclusively; the rest accept the Matrix by being bound by its rules) and the machines have created the Path of the One to keep the occasional anomaly from bringing down the system entirely.

Someone earlier made the remark about how 'even throwaway lines are foreshadowing' - hmmm... What was it Tank said during Neo's first training session - when Morpheus asks "How's he doing?" - Tank replies: "He's.... a machine - xx hours straight" HMMMMM.

How many people were on the council of zion? Men/Women? Vs what the architect said Neo would have to chose. Are they the chosen ones from the last matrix?

There is still something that hasn't been explained yet...

The Architect tells Neo that he won't be able to save Trinity (he says "she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it"). But in the end of Reloaded that isn't true.

Does that mean the Architect was refering to Revolutions and that Trinity will die in the third movie?

OK having read many of your interesting theorys i to was sceptical of this matrix inside of matrix idea. However it just came to my attention that the architect says he will have to choose so many men/women to rebuild Zion. Well if he did that wouldn't they being real people, unpluged and independant of the system and theirfore carry the knowledge of zions falling and rebuilding. Which leads me to wonder why no one can remember zion being rebuilt once before. The only way that could possibly be the case is if they are infact still connected to the system and their memorys have been rewritten or some such (if will can remeber siefer... i want to be rich famous and remeber NOTHING).

Then thiers all the other scenes that support this idea. 1. Smiths mind overtakes that guy. 2. NEO STOPS SENTINELS WITH HAND.

Well i guess we'll just have to wait for revolutions to proove my theory!

Well clearly the matrix should be USED for SEX!!!. What are these wachowski bros thinking, they created the foundation for a brilliant virtual XXX movie with very nice moves avaliable to them. All i can say is someone better rectify these actions and wanna see PORNATRIX screening ASAP

WELL ALL U SEXY BIG BRESTED WANABE KARATE EXPERT SLUTS CAN COME RIDE MY BIG HARD DICK AND MAKE ME WANNA CUM SO HARD I BLAST YOU INTO OBLIVION.

MAKE SURE VERY VERY SEXY AND GOT ONE FINE ASS BODY FOR ME TO FUCK OR YOU'LL BE VERY SORRY BITCHES.

L8R SLUTS

what i want to know is who is the mother of the matrix?
also,whatif neo had not made a choice at all and just stayed in that white room with the archietect?
could he have killed him right there and then and get it over with? and what is the archietect?
is he human or a program, and why bother to create such a thing as a matrix?
and which came first the archietect of the matrix, or the creators of the machines? or are they one in the same?
this movie has the most complex plot i have ever seen. pure genious

I think the real world IS the real world. I could be wrong but we saw the French dude give a woman an orgasm via a cake. I think this was a hint that ingesting matter in the matrix can change your behavior or possibly even your abilities and maybe THAT is why the oracle offered Neo the candy. Maybe that's how he electrocuted the squidies towards the end of the film. Remember Neo is not a human but actually a cyborg designed to produce electricty. Maybe the candy was just software for his mechanical parts to makes bursts of electricity rather than spirts.

I cannot explain why Smith is capable to enter the real world so maybe my theory is wrong. If the machines can project a matrix into the minds of humans/cyborgs, could it be possible for an ex-agent to get into the head of one also?

If zion is not real (as in part of a matrix, but not the 1999 matrix) why was Agent Smith after the access codes to Zion's mainframe in the First movie? It stands to reason that if he was part of the control system that he'd have access already.

I think Smith (now not an agent) has posessed Bane via the cyborg implants he has. If the matrix can penetrate the human brain could Smith enslave his brain and super-impose himself overtop in the real world? Kind of like a middle-man.

In any case I think these are the questions we were meant to ask.

What i do not understand is this. If, infact, there were 5 'ones' before Neo, why did they not inform the people they unplugged of the events that would surley take place. Since the event of meeting the Architect is set in stone(or seems to be), wouldn't all of the other 'ones' have known exactly what Neo knows now? So therefor, why wouldn't the one before Neo inform Morpheus about the machines plans? Makes absolutley no sense on that one, in my opinion. And furthermore, the guy with the hot wife(Marovingian? sorry for miss spell), says "You're predecessor's had much more respect", should that not have sent a ding off in Neo's head to question anything? Obviously, he had known about his 'predecessor' but plural? Just something to think about.