"a few line breaking bugs with have been addressed."
I'm actually glad the bugs were there, because it moved me to find alternatives in places where alternatives existed.
I think the only time <nobr> is truly required is when displaying URLs, because those things never break right. I wish we could teach text engines how to parse and word-break URLs, although I think people disagree on where they should break. Personally I like to break paths before a slash and query strings before an ampersand or semicolon.
-Walter
Posted by Walter Ian Kaye at April 5, 2003 1:51 PMAny progress on support for binary posts, so Flash Remoting will work (ie: Macromedia's site)? :)
Posted by Cody at April 5, 2003 2:05 PMGreat news Dave... keep up the good work
Posted by John Morrison at April 5, 2003 2:17 PMHow sad - I saw a bug in bugzilla that addressed the issue that mozilla does a lot of tweaks in it's table rendering that it really shouldn't, but does just because IE do. They actually pointed at safari for example of how it properly should behave.
Posted by Liorean at April 5, 2003 2:19 PMSay it isn't true, IE's table layout is the bane of my web design existence. It totally ignores cell widths that I specify seemingly because it thinks it can guess better.
Even the April 1st posting was more palatable than this.
If you are going to mimic WinIEs table algorithms only do so when the designer has not specified values to use.
Posted by Senjaz at April 5, 2003 2:29 PMThis is in quirks mode, right? Say it is so.
Posted by Simon at April 5, 2003 2:37 PMTry to avoid using the words "reverse engineering" and "IE" in the same line. That might just get the attention of some lawyers, with the DCMA and all ;)
Posted by Nik at April 5, 2003 2:59 PMDave has run into one simple problem -- the CSS2 specification has so little to say about table layout, that just about anything is conformant. So in practice, if there is no spec to implement you do the next-best thing -- do the same thing as everyone else is doing....
Posted by Boris at April 5, 2003 3:04 PMI found a page that displays tables differently in Camino, Safari, IEMac, iCab, Opera, and OmniWeb. Six different implementations!
See it here. I honestly can't figure out what 'correct' behavior is for this file.
It's apparently an MS Word doc. Go figure that IE is the only one that renders it.
Posted by Michael at April 5, 2003 5:46 PMURL stripped, the page is at http://www.xp123.com/g4p/0212a/index.shtml
Posted by Michael at April 5, 2003 5:46 PMOMG. Safari now is officially *nothing*.
What a wasted effort altering tables to work incorrectly.
Posted by Steve at April 6, 2003 2:02 AMI'm not altering tables to work "incorrectly." Good grief.
In places where the CSS2 table specification is ambiguous, and where gaps in the behavior must be filled in, I am making sure that we behave like WinIE as much as possible.
I am not altering WebCore in any way that will produce incorrect rendering according to Web standards. I would have thought that would be clear.
"OMG. Safari now is officially *nothing*."
Wow. That's got to be this blog's equivalent of "Worst. Episode. Ever." Why don't you wait for Safari to be, oh, i dunno...finished?
Posted by todd at April 6, 2003 4:05 AMWhy the hell do you waste your time with table improvement when you just stated a couple of days sooner, that table support was about to be dropped ???
Posted by Dominique PERETTI at April 6, 2003 8:19 AMDom: Did you see the date of the prior post?
Posted by Chris Waskowich at April 6, 2003 8:33 AMAnother site with layer problems (at least in v60, the hyphotetical versions had some problems with input type=file which I didn't have the time to figure out):
http://www.sophieellisbextor.net/
Chris : I was just KIDDING.
Posted by Dominique PERETTI at April 6, 2003 11:37 AMSo.. Safari ~isn't~ dropping table support? ;p
Posted by Dan at April 6, 2003 2:19 PMWhat's a table?
Posted by Garrett Smith at April 6, 2003 3:20 PMYou're all a bunch of smartasses. :)
I wonder if this means Safari will also resize faster on excite.com. Seriously, Safari may be the fastest web browser on the Mac (and maybe PC) but it's got one of the slowest resize response of any browser.
Posted by Rosyna at April 6, 2003 4:22 PMSeriously, come on...it's getting old.
Posted by A New Beta Please at April 6, 2003 5:47 PMYes, my ass is smart...maybe it could help code Safari with you? O:-)
Posted by SPOOF at April 6, 2003 6:02 PMHey Mr. Hyatt,
I would have submitted a bug report however safari hard crashes forcing me to force quit so I can't push the button. I also can't specifically tell you the pages it does this on, afterwards because the address in the address bar doesn't show the full address - it always displays "www.asianavenue.com/members/" regardless of what page your looking at in their site.
Its basically only on AsianAvenue.com that this happens, when I go to look at my friends websites - it fails to display the page completely (beach ball crash) or renders it very strangely. The strange rendering I attribute to odd coding by hobbiests. However the crashing I think is a real bug. If there is any more useful information you need just say so, I can supply the AA names of the people who's sites I know crash it, but AA doesn't seem to let you view the source so I could say what they were doing exactly.
Posted by Vincent at April 6, 2003 6:11 PMVincent - if you know the URL, use curl in the Terminal for the source.
Posted by Kevin at April 6, 2003 6:13 PMGreat.. Awesome.. More improvements... Please give us a new safari soon.. Pretty please.. thanks..
Posted by mblind at April 6, 2003 10:22 PM
Dave, Safari (bugs and all) is light years ahead of Exploder.
In terms of table support, note that Internet Exploder messes up rendering of italic justified text in table cells because it does not insert an italic correction. So one has to add cellpadding to allow for Exploder's incorrect justification.
Also, Exploder has a bug where it sometimes renders the same word twice in justified text in a table cell. It will render the same word at the end of the line and at the beginning of the next line. When you double click on thw word at the end of the line, the word at the start of the next line gets selected. I will try to reproduce this one and will upload a page to illustrate the bug.
Best Wishes,
........ Henry
When I visit sites using SAFARI, I've noticed .gif images really hold up the page rendering. It clogs other images from from loading as well. Please keep in mind Im surfing on a 56k connection, but this can be really annoying at times. Will the next release feature a option to turn off animated gifs all together?
Posted by Roman at April 7, 2003 4:11 AMJust sent you a message direct... requesting that someone fix the SSL issue, it's not a bug but an improvement. Please have someone move the LOCK that appears hidden off to the top right in never never land, to be just left of the title. To your average surfer this will provide a feeling of "safety" and "security"... Now thinking about it, it is a bug! A psychological one for the user that needs to be fix. ;-)
Many Thanks,
Charles
Does : http://www.bfsb-bahamas.com/ work without completely crashing yet? (valid HTML, but causes a complete and painful 'Unexpected Quit" in 64 and 67)
that's all I want to know
Posted by Ben at April 7, 2003 7:43 AMKeep up the good work Dave, can't wait for the next beta release to see the fruits of your labor. I just downloaded Camino v.7, it's pretty awesome as well. I love the Tab grouping feature that is found in the bookmarks.
Mac users have gone from drought to an abundanza (sp?) of awesome browsers. Apple creating Safari is no doubt responsible for igniting all the innovation that is going on in the browser space.
You know what would really be cool is if the bookmarks feature worked off of the central address book, that way any browser could be designed to work with it. What do you think?
Posted by jack at April 7, 2003 9:33 AMTrying to figure out why safari has issues with the navigation I created for http://sprintbiz.com/products/dedicated/index.html . The three items in the nav on this page below dedicated internet access shouldnn't have any arrows beside them, and don't in any modern browser I can find besides Safari. Any thoughts?
Posted by John at April 7, 2003 11:53 AMGreat work, but when does the undefined cookie path bug get fixed?
Posted by Luke at April 7, 2003 1:23 PMJohn - because Safari behaves correctly? You didn't properly override the background for your sublevel list links. You have:
.sidenav ul a {
display: block;
padding: 3px 0 3px 25px;
margin: 0;
background: transparent;
font-size: 11px;
}
Instead, the background should say "none" (or even ("transparent none") (no quotes). As it stands, you're overriding the background-color (which defaults to transparent anyway) but not background-image, which is the arrow image. Other browsers may be treating the background: attribute as overriding everything else with default values. Safari is obviously not, and I feel that is (or should be) the correct way.
Basically, use background: none; instead of background: transparent;.
HTH,
Kevin
Are cookies ever going to get any attention?
No, that's a bug in Safari. I'll get it filed.
(That was to Kevin regarding the background issue.)
Dave - I talked with John privately via email about this. He never actually stated whether using 'none' worked, but I'd assume it would. Is the bug simply that using background: and not specifying all values doesn't reset the others to their default values? If so, is this actually explicitly stated in the CSS2 spec that it should reset the other values to the default, or is this just how other browsers behave?
BTW, he had another weird bug (with tables), but it seems to be gone in v67 (and his fix, that worked in v60, doesn't work in v67 anymore, even though it looks like it should). Maybe you should email him for info on it?
Posted by Kevin at April 7, 2003 3:47 PMWanna see a page which chokes Safari? Surf around this link (iht.com) and look at all their widgets. My favorite is while scrolling and when a 3 column page renders as the same column 3 times.
They are a great site with great UI features....please take a look if you have time.
Posted by Celo at April 7, 2003 4:38 PMhttp://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Overview.xml
This page does not render in Safari. It should load the XML Stylesheet in XSL(T) and thus render the page properly. Once this is done I and many others can finally take advantage of client-enabled XSL stylesheets. This is optimal as my site has lots of both dynamic and static content. The static data need not be in the datafiles, as it generally does not change from page to page. (Navigation Links, Copyright, Layout and Formatting, etc; do generally not change between pages.)
Safari shows promise from a technical standpoint, but seems, to me, to be taking off in several unfortunate directions regarding user interface design. First and foremost is the bookmarks which really do not cut it. Give up and do things the way IE does. It is vastly more useable to navigate with. Some people claim to like the full page to "organize" the bookmarks, but IE has this also if they would ever use it to compare. The other items in the left pane are quite useful as well. It would be nice to have a button in the tab bar (as Mozilla does) to add tabs without multiple mouse clicks.
Another item that IE does better than all the rest is save web pages (not the scrapbook feature in IE, which is useful, but limiting) into another storage area as a single file item. Safari, like all but IE, has at least two files per page saved which makes keeping and organizing information for later retrieval. (This is not the DEVONthink business, just a filing cabinet style folder storage).
These two reasons alone will relegate Safari to the status of a browser that will be used only occasionally as it does not perform tasks which I deem essential.
As far as bugs go, there are still an unfortunate number of sites which have full functionality in IE for any number of reasons. I am sure that some of these are simply bad code on the web site, but that is what is out there to be dealt with.
Posted by RB at April 7, 2003 9:27 PM
Well, count me as one of many who prefers Safari's bookmark system - it's vastly superior to IE. As for the scrapbook feature, this would be useful.
As for the rest of Safari, the interface is wonderfully streamlined, the performance is outstanding, and yes, I'm someone who's used tabbed browsing and loves it. To be honest, I could see people liking Camino over Safari (adherents to Gecko) or OmniWeb (for the unique interface features), but why IE?
Speaking of Camino, I discovered bookmark keywords recently - any way we might see that in Safari, or is it too "out there"? I came up with some incredibly useful translation bookmarks as a result.
Posted by Joshua at April 7, 2003 10:28 PMKevin, see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/about.html#shorthand paragraph 3.
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/about.html#shorthand has the same wording, exactly.
Posted by Boris at April 8, 2003 8:36 AM"Well, count me as one of many who prefers Safari's bookmark system - it's vastly superior to IE. As for the scrapbook feature, this would be useful."
Good... but, personally, I also hope that the concept of bookmarks will be even further improved in Safari (and OS X 10.3 "Panther"), to become an as extended as possible, system-wide concept (à la OS X "Favorites", but better, and more "automatic" in its implementation) - like a Service, available to all applications, etc...
Posted by Sven at April 8, 2003 9:38 AMCorland Hawes writes:
> http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Overview.xml
> This page does not render in Safari. It should load the XML
> Stylesheet in XSL(T) and thus render the page properly.
I'm presuming that if you think this is a bug, it should be filed as a bug by using the bug report icon. But this does point to a difficulty I have with distinguishing between begging for a feature and begging for a bug fix. In general, I would want to report something as a bug if I have reason to believe it should work (and I've done lots of that). But there are some things that I would like Safari to do, but which I could rationalize are "really" requests for new features. I think it would be huge to have some official clarification of what features Safari 1.0 will really support, so that people will file bugs against that feature set, rather than wishcasting a fix to something like "Safari doesn't use XSLT style sheets", which would be awesome, but seems kind of unlikely.
So what should I do? Should I file a bug on paged media stuff not working since it's in CSS2 and lots of CSS2 stuff does work? Are :before and :after and generated content expected in 1.0? Are there any public guidelines on this stuff that I'm missing?
Posted by Jonathan King at April 8, 2003 11:43 AMVirtually every missing CSS2 feature has a bug filed already, so you don't need to do that. We are planning on fully supporting CSS2 (within reason of course, since there are portions of the spec that are not really implementable or that aren't applicable).
:before/:after work in Safari these days (they don't work well in v60 though), so if you see bugs with those (once you see the next release with fixes) file with the bug button.
But yes, filing huge feature requests like "Implement XSLT" or "Implement XHTML2" from the bug button is kind of pointless. Just know that if you're making a huge request like that, the bug is probably filed already anyway.
I've given up on reporting bugs for now. It's been so long since v60 that there's no point because we no longer have an idea of what is fixed and what's not.
Posted by Mike at April 8, 2003 6:25 PMI've never used bookmarks as much till I started to use Safari. It is the best interface. Adding a search and making it a public service for all apps via the global address books would make it complete.
keep up the good work Dave.
Posted by jack at April 8, 2003 8:15 PMOur site, http://www.liberationmedia.com, still shows strange rendering, with text on top of text in the upper text area... Hmmm...
Posted by Hunter at April 8, 2003 10:58 PMGreat with the bug fixes, but one BIG BUG that still annoyes me is the frames bug. So often the target frame turnes white when a page is linked from a navigational frame to the target frame. It helps to press reload when the target frame turnes white. That makes the page appear, but that should not be nescessary right?!
I also have problems when I want to download an attachment from my Hotmail account. When pressing download it just logs me out of Hotmail. It works in IE and Camino (as do the frame thing).
Best regards,
Peter Larsen
Among other things, I'd like the bookmarks window to be scrollable with keyboard shortcuts.
Posted by Scott J. Kramer at April 9, 2003 2:38 AMAny idea if the more receent builds of Safari support pages
with mathematics generated by TtH?
(http://hutchinson.belmont.ma.us/tth/)
Seems like it is a problem with accessing the symbol font under Safari.
Sorry if it is a known bug.
Posted by Yan at April 9, 2003 9:13 AMHyatt writes:
[very helpful tip not to sweat CSS2 since essentially all of it is coming...woo hoo! I *know* we're all waiting for the armenian value for the list-style-type property. :-)]
>But yes, filing huge feature requests like "Implement
>XSLT" or "Implement XHTML2" from the bug button is
>kind of pointless. Just know that if you're making a huge
>request like that, the bug is probably filed already >anyway.
Glad to hear I was on the right track. I had a hunch that asking for, say, native SVG support would be treated in a similar point-and-laugh fashion.
Note that the concept of "Symbol font" as practiced in the good old days and on that site is a direct violation of the CSS specification and the Unicode standard.
So Safari not supporting that is in fact correct. Not like they're prohibited from breaking the standards in the name of site compat, of course... ;)
Posted by Boris at April 9, 2003 1:21 PMDear Dave:
Forgive my ignorance. After reading about you in the May MacWorld I decided to descend into GeekWorld, whence I surmise that you have something to do with Safari (thank you!!), which probably outdoes the Brits for understatement.
My one wish, and the only thing I miss about IE, is the autofill feature. PUHleeze, if there's any way in hell, please add this in a future update!
Meanwhile, can you tell me where to find postings of 3rd party Safari add-ons and I'll see if anyone has engineered this feature already.
Posted by David at April 11, 2003 4:45 AMaaarrrrgggghhhhh! Why why why! Yeah then lets take it a step further and make OSX act more like Windows XP?! What? Are you kidding? I've been designing for the web since 1995 and now have to see a "valid code" therapist because of all the crazy Win IE hacks I cannot seem to rip from my brain. Win IE simply does not even come close to a passing grade. How about we all start with standards ya know the W3C.
Sit back insert song "Imagine" and imagine the web as a place were people freely code sites based on standards that anyone can access even the disabled. Apple must rise to the top and stay ahead of the pack. Apple has always been about natural human interfaces and giving access to all. Let's try and keep it that way.
Posted by randy at April 11, 2003 6:15 PMI'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but since we're on the topic of 'Bugs', I just wanted to point out that Safari does not pick out proxy information set out in 'System Preferences>Network' correctly. Under 'System Preferences>Network', my copy of Safari is supposed to bypass the proxy when accessing sites from a certain domain. However, my copy of Safari (1.0 Beta v60) does not seem to get this info & insists that I log in to the proxy server before it allows access to the site. Just wondering if I am alone with this problem.
Posted by Damien at April 14, 2003 6:52 AMAny idea why my website STILL looks like poo, even in the new Safari Beta? I use extensive tables to render my site and Safari is the only (well now the OMNI Web SP3 too) browser that renders improperly...
HOW can I fix that white bar bug?
Posted by James at April 14, 2003 8:21 AMMy website doesn't look right in Safari. It's because, mostly, of the fact that it doesn't support scrollable div tags. That's a bit annoying.
Posted by nikki at April 14, 2003 8:47 AMAny time frame on when Div tag rendering will be corrected?? (overflow set to scroll or auto are incorrect)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/css2tests/overflow.html
Posted by Alex Duffield at April 14, 2003 10:03 AMHi, I keep reporthing this problem (and ones like it) through the bug icon on safari... but it's still not fixed in beta 2... So here I'll give it to you...
http://homepage.mac.com/sixcolors/NWE/
The max-width and min-width tags on the parent div for the 'menu' are ignored... IE ignores them too, but I expect IE to not work... However they work great in Gecko and Opera...
hello,
i've just DLed safari v73 and for my surprise, i've noticed that it is not http 1.1 compliant.
i've made some tests and it just doesn't work... my server have mod_gzip compression, and i've tested onIE6 on virtual PC and worked as expected.
it's sad to see that no browser on mac have this option
are you planning to get it done!? i think it's a MUST HAVE nowadays...
thanx and keep up with such a good work!
ctrn?
Posted by catarino at April 14, 2003 11:43 AMCatarino - I've tried almost all the Mac browsers and the only one I can find that supports gzip compressed html is Mozilla. I did do a bug report via the bug button on Safari about it a while ago..
Damien - I can verify that "bypass proxy for these domains" doesn't work. Whats worse is that https doesn't work through a proxy either (or at least not the proxy *I* am behind..)
Posted by Chad White at April 14, 2003 1:55 PMPlease forgive me for posting on the site asking for a particular fix. I'm just at a loss to figure it out, and hope that either someone on the site has the answer, or someone working on Safari can check this out.
I love Safari, and would be thrilled to use it, but, I use Ebay quite a bit. I collect World War 2 Royal Air Force items. Safari will often display an Ebay page with one of these items as "Invalid Item" and display an Ebay message saying that the items are deemed inappropriate for viewing from my home country. Being as the Britain's RAF was (and is) an ally of the United States, it would seem odd that I am unable to view these items on Ebay from the United States. No other browser yields this result.
My Location for timezone purposes is New York, NY and I can't imagine why this is the only browser prohibiting me from viewing these benign items on Ebay.
Can anyone help me become a Safari user?
Posted by Dan Sanger at April 14, 2003 2:44 PMOkay, so I'm looking at this bug in bugzilla:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158166
And I'm trying to decide .. is this is a bugzilla bug, or a Safari bug?
It seems to be fixed in bugzilla 2.17.1 (as that is what bugzilla.mozilla.org is running) but on my site, which is running 2.16.1, it still has problems with Safari.
I'd rather not upgrade bugzilla if I don't have to, so I'm curious if this will be addressed in a future Safari release (post v73) or if I will have to upgrade bugzilla instead.
Thanks. BTW, v73 is great! Love the tabs.
jon
Posted by Jonathan Baumgartner at April 14, 2003 10:38 PMFrames still dont work properly. Click on my Name (link) and try the gallery on Kristinna Lokens website (Terminatrix in T3). When thumbnails is clicked the target frame goes blank. Reload helps, but that should not be nescessary.
Why does frames work so bad in Safari???
Posted by Peter Larsen at April 17, 2003 11:46 PMHi, I already saw it more on this list... but even with the new Safari version there is still the (auto-overflow) scrollable-DIV bug... * (http://www.xplized.nl/website/frameset.htm) * and the scrolls that show up... at bad ones ?-)
keep the good stuff coming!
Patrick
Posted by Patrick Bloom at April 21, 2003 4:43 PMI have a form with a file field. I am not trying to pass a file using multipart - I simply need the file name that a user has on their harddrive and thought that the easiest way for them to get this was to browse for it. Once the form is submitted I handle it like a regular form field and grab it's data. For some reason, safari is not recognizing this field. I've tried both post and get - it seems to ignore them. This same technique works in all other browsers. Is there a work around?
" method="POST" name="form1" onSubmit="YY_checkform('form1',);checkFileUpload(this,,true,'','','','','','','');compare();return document.MM_returnValue"> Submission for Consideration: Step 2 File Name : "> "> "> Posted by Julian Dormon at June 24, 2003 9:28 AM