I have been having some interesting debates online about the value of tabs in browsing and possible replacements. It is very interesting (which is what its all about really) to hear your perspective on this.

Thank you for sharing, and, thanks for truly helping (via your work on Safari) to improve the Mac experience.

-R

In the browser world pre-tabs, my favorite browser was OmniWeb, simply because of it's "Open link behind this window" contextual menu item on links, and the associated preference to map cmd-clicking a link to that action.

It's like opening tabs in the background, because you can click click click click a bunch of links into new windows without having to click back to the original window each time, as you do when you open in a new window in FRONT of the current window.

Regardless of whether tabs are in safari, I think that's a great feature for ANY browser. If it clutters the UI, perhaps it could be enabled through some NSUserDefault. ;-)

Thanks for sharing this insight into tabbed browsing nuances.

On the Where do new tabs open? subject. I would say that the way Chimera works is the only way I think make sense.

I usually open a new tab for a link I want to read later, so when I'm finish with the article I'm reading, I close the tab and see the other link I wanted to read behind. The only problem is that It works better with background loading tab.

So I just hope that the hypothetical version 62 of Safari works the same way ;-)

Does all this mean that tabs will be implemented into Safari!?! I sure hope so.

I don't remember where I saw this suggestion, but someone designed an excellent mockup using the slide-out drawer instead of tabs. I thought it was a great system - it stays consistent with the OSX UI, can be hidden to save screen real estate, has a scrollbar so lots of windows don't get crunched, and just generally makes sense. The specific mockup I saw was modeled after Acquisition, with the little X-Men-logo-like circular close button on each item, which matches Dave's ideal close-box behavior as well. It just seemed like a logical extension of how OSX's GUI handles things. I dunno, though, maybe the drawer paradigm isn't supposed to go with the metal theme. (Like *anybody* follows UI themes with metal apps :)

Did you try Piro's Tabbed Browser Extension? It gives you all those options (append vs replace vs insert, X's on the tabs, etc.) It is the only extension I use with Phoenix.

define can;
define worms;

open can, worms;

If was hypothetically useing a certain tabbed mac browser, the close box on the tabs would hypothetically cause me to have to be very careful when swiching a to tab, otherwise I might close the tab I was meaning to swich too.

Oh, and thanks a lot for giving a detailed opinion. ::grin::

An additionally helpful feature implemented in the Windows version of Opera is the option to resume browsing from a prior state when the browser is closed.

ie, If you have 7 windows open in the browser, but for some reason need to close it, it crashes, etc. you can pick right back up where you started.

It would seem to go hand-in-hand with the UI functionality mentioned in the article.

"The right way IMO to do this is to have a close box for closing up the tab strip itself in the same place Phoenix and Mozilla have it, but to also have close boxes on the tabs themselves (the way Galeon does it)."

What do you mean by "closing up the tab strip"? If that means closing everything, then you have the window close button. Otherwise, what does remain in the "normal" window, the content from the last selected tab? The latter seems a viable option.

Alltogether a brilliant analysis of the tab situation! Looking forward to seeing that in practice where you know ;-)

Putting Tabs on the left is good, but as soon as the Tabs fill the whole width of the browser, they start to move again as soon as you add or close a Tab. But there is a solution around that, which you might not have thought of: Don't scale the Tabs everytime a new one is added, but instead *scale them in groups*. This means that as soon as the first Tabs is added that requires scaling all Tabs, scale them to add room for 4 new tabs. So the next 3 new Tabs don't move all tabs around.

I hope this doesn't sound too complicated, but this a major thing I don't like in current Tab implementations - when all Tabs move, I lose focus. An example where this is implemented is the Windows Task Bar (sic).

Cheers!
Gnorpf

Rather than suggesting you hated tabs, I thought I'd read something by you, carefully and sensibly argued, explaining why tabs were the wrong solution for the sort of designed-for-the-masses browser Safari was, and that Safari would never have tabs. Of course, I can't find it now. Was I imagining things?

The "Open in Tabs" idea is fine so long as a single "thingie" in the browser toolbar (or "bookmarks bar" or whatever) can open a set of tabs. No one wants to have to navigate into a submenu every time they want to load a set of tabs. I want to simply click one thingie and have a set of tabs load. Everything else is a minor detail :-)

Allison, yes. I never wrote anything like that AFAICT. :) I do believe tabs are a power user feature, so maybe you read something where I talked about that, but I do firmly believe every browser should have tabbed browsing, especially since it is easily concealed from novices.

I started out with tabbed browsing via Camino, and therefore am most used to it’s method of browsing. I have, however, found one thing I truly love, implemented in Phoenix. There is a built in option to open new tabs using the middle mouse button. This feature makes for extremely simple browsing. I liked it so much that I actually assigned my mousewheel to cmd-click, as to “implement” this feature within Camino.

I happen to agree with Gnorpf. I love using tabbed browsing, but do tetest the resizing of tabs as it pulls my attentions away from what I am doing (Which I guess would only be closing a tab). It reminds of these new ad banners for school loans that move slightly and get your attention. I think an implementation that once you reach the end of your screen real estate would then layer the tabs in a folder of sorts would work very well.

I also feel that any level user can learn to use tabbed browsing to their advantage. Think of a work environment where you may have 5 or 10 minutes to browse the latest news and such, but someone walks up to you and needs you to pull open an specific URL. If they use tabs, they can open a new tab open the URL they need for work and still have their personal browsing tab open to view once they are done with the immediate crisis. This keeps screen real estate clutter to a minimum.

I think Dave really hit the nail on the head about tabs.

Jim Roepcke wrote:
"In the browser world pre-tabs, my favorite browser was OmniWeb, simply because of it's "Open link behind this window" contextual menu item on links, and the associated preference to map cmd-clicking a link to that action."

This is implemented in Safari, Jim. Hold down Command and Shift while clicking a link and the page loads in a new window behind the current one.

i personally would disagree with dave on the subject of bookmark groups vs folder options. i organise my bookmarks so that all blogs go in one folder, all mac rumor sites in another etc etc. but my average browsing excperience involves me browsing several totally different sites that i would never put together in a bookmarks folder. i'll use one tab to run through the rumor and news sites in sequence, one permanently open with a community site, one tab used for blogs of my friends, etc. i dont want all my rumor sites open at once, nor all my blog sites open at once. the whole point of tabbed browsing is that you can multi-task between lots of different sites. in which case, being able to create a group of tabs incorporating all these various types of sites would be better than just being able to open a group of related ones. then, using safaris excellent bookmark bar i can move between blogs while i move between rumor sites, chat on my community site etc etc. of course folder launching would be useful to some people and to me in certain circumstances, but i do like the idea of "bookmark playlists" that could even launch at startup!

Dave, what do you think about opening new tabs from different apps (mail.app, NetNewsWire, etc.)? Personally I think this is another vital part of tabbed browsing connected with the open in the background bit.

The only detailed argument against tabs I've found was from matthew thomas:
http://mpt.phrasewise.com/
(can't find the exact url offhand...)

While mpt certainly has some interesting things to say, he's wrong about tabs.

But thats alright, because he works in a Net Cafe, and can't make interface decisions about Apple products.

And the people that can, it seems, know whats up with tabs :)

It's well and good to discuss the proper behavior of tab ordering when opening new links in tabs. It's a useful discussion to have.

However, it seems that a good deal of the associated pain with tab ordering could be done away with by simply allowing tabs to be reordered! Just drag them smoothly into the order you want, just as with items in the bookmark bar.

Maybe that's part of the plan for Safari, but the capability isn't present in the hypothetical v62.

"In Phoenix, you replace instead, so the News tabs go away and are replaced by tabs 6-10. The argument for append is basically that you end up with potential data loss in that you may lose access to the previous tabs by closing up some of the ones you replaced, e.g., if the second group has fewer tabs than the first. This is of course a solvable problem, though, and doesn't justify changing the default behavior to append."

Yes, it's a solvable problem. But why wasn't it solved right away? It should not replace any tabs, it should just change the url:s for the affected tabs. I.e. you should be able to use the Back button on tab 1-5 to go back to the previous page in history, AND it should not touch the tabs it doesn't need. E.g. if you have 6 tabs open and then open a new 3-tab group, tabas 4 to 6 should not be affected (thus avoiding dataloss).

"Despite the inconsistency with opening links in new windows, I strongly support the default in Phoenix, which is to open links in new tabs in the background by default."

It's interesting though that Phoenix opens bookmarks in foreground tabs by default. I remember that you asked the users (us) what we thought, and I also remember that most people thought it would be best with consistency (e.g. even bookmarks should default to open in a background tab), but your decision was based on the fact that you normally wanted to go to a bookmark right away, as opposed to ctrl+clicking on a link on a page.

I contributed many of the ideas in the mockup that Dave referred to. I certainly am disappointed to see that Dave doesn't think its a good idea despite the fact that it solves the truncation problem and "fits" with the overall design of Safari (I actually suggested that the background of the pane be white instead of metal to look like the "Collections List"). Having said that, I'm not a zealot in the "tabs vs no tabs" debate. All I will suggest is that the tabs be connected to the page content. IOTW, turn the "right side up" instead of the "upside down" approach that is currently seen in v. 62. When a Bookmarks Bar is present, the current look is simply visually confusing.

OAW

I don't think you had 800 requests for tabs from power users. I don't think any power user would have requsted them the way they did. Now, if your definition of a novice user is someone on "AOL" then you may be correct, but other than that I would disagree.

I Love Tabs, But all tabs implementations sucks ! :

Why on earth closing a window full of tabs there's isn't a dialog warning "are you sure to close this window taht contains tabs ?"

I'v lost hours of surfing just because I forgot had tabs in that windows.

OF course, when quiting a browser such a dialog should prompt

OK, here's a behavior that I think is wrong...

If you have the bookmarks drawer open, shouldn't you be able to open new tabs in the background without the drawer closing?

Other than that, Safari is outstanding. Keep up the great work!

I personally like Opera's (Windoze) implementation the best. You can shift-click to close a tab. Double click in the empty tab space to open a new tab. You can move tabs around and drop them from one window to another. The only thing it didn't do was drag and drop links into a tab or tab-space, but I think the Mac version does. Not sure what order it opens tabs in as I don't use Windows anymore.

I completely agree with your analysis, Dave, but I wonder now why Chimera/Camino & Safari (hypothetically) move to the LEFT after closing a tab, rather than the right as you suggest should happen? Chimera USED to move right, but some time ago they changed it & it's made me nuts ever since, since I invariably want to read the NEXT tab I opened, not one I've already read.

Perhaps will this hypothetically be corrected in the next hypothetical Safari release?

OAW, there are clever ways of solving the truncation problem using the existing tab model. I will get into that in future blogs.

I actually don't think the thumbnails are a bad idea per se. I think they're slightly less usable than the tab strip model. It would still be interesting to see someone try the idea in a browser, since the idea could perhaps be refined to work around some of the disadvantages of the approach.

bc, actually I do believe that virtually all requests for tabs have come from people that I would consider power users. Note that virtually anyone who hangs out on an online Mac forum is a power user in my book. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology, but I mean habitual computer users, people who spend a lot of time in a Web browser/online.

The requests for tabs are coming from an extremely vocal minority of technically inclined people, as are virtually all of Safari's other feature requests, since those are really the majority of people using Safari at this point.

I've never really understood the whole truncation problem. When using tabs, I rarely open more than maybe 4 or 5 tabs. Perhaps 7 or 8 tops. I mean, I understand that some may find it easier to open 12, 15, 20, whathaveyou tabs, but in that case, would not a seperate window with it's own tabs be easier? I find it hard to believe that all 20 tabs are related, and can not be more easily arranged in categorical windows.

I actually like thumbnails idea. But to borrow a bit from the OS X dock, perhaps assigning a "badge" to a thumbnail would make it easier to identiy? Many sites currently don't have an "icon" set, but if they did, it'd be pretty nifty. Kind of like application badges in minimized dock windows.

The horizontal space is still a problem, though. Many many Mac users may be happily browsing on their wide screen LCDs, but I'm still stuck on my 12" iBook.

Are any of the power users pleased with how MultiZilla works
(just as a Mozilla reference /v131pre ... they don't make
mention of Multi very often)?

But I do agree with what Dave stated above;
I mean that Safari design must adhere to simplicity/efficiency/
elegance, including for this UI/tabs stuff. Thanks Safari team;

"Why on earth closing a window full of tabs there's isn't a dialog warning "are you sure to close this window taht contains tabs ?""

Even more: why not have a "Do you really want to quit Safari" alert option for any time there's a browser window open? Often I'll have a window or three minimized (and forgotten) to dock, and only realized after quitting that I hadn't read those pages I'd saved to dock.

This is a preference-option in iCab which I hop you reproduce in Safari. It will help eliminate the possibility that windows will accidentally be closed or lost through closing/quitting.

thisisthevince:
Actually, Konqueror/3.1 wanrs you if you close a window containing multiple tabs.. I am surprised that other browsers don't since it's not exactly a hard-to-implement thing...

Oh.. And I am definitely looking forward to the explanation on how to solve the truncation (that means too many tabs to fit, right?) problem..

OAW - the thumbnail idea sucks. No offense, but it takes up too much screen real-estate (especially horizontal real-estate).

fritter - the same with your drawer idea. Drawers are ok, except that in an application like this, they take up WAY too much space. That was my biggest problem with Camino's bookmarks editing. It used a drawer. It would be better if it used a drawer on the botom, because that at least doesn't change the horizontal width of my window, but still, drawers use up way too much screen real-estate for an application with windows that are all-too-often maximized (I always have my browser windows maximized)

About the tab bookmark groups replacing each other. That sounds good, as long as, say, holding down command will make it append. That way you get both behaviours (without having to open a new window for the second group)

Just started getting into the whole 'tab' thing and this thread got me thinking of how i would like to use them.

I liked the idea of 'open bookmark folder as group of tabs' but agree with the comments about having to put bookmarks in two places being bad -
I also often want to open a bunch of unrelated sites that would be odd to keep in the same folder.

Then i had a revelation about how to make sets of bookmarks that aren't confined to a single folder...
Assign lables ( like we had back in the days of OS9 ;-) to bookmarks then we could have a way of opening a set of bookmarks as a bunch of tabs.
Drop down menu between the bookmark icon and the Rendezvous menu with a list of lables/sets anyone?

A side effect would be that we could also sort the Bookmarks window by lable, perhaps similar to the 3 pane Artist/Album/tracks view in iTunes?

Sorry if this has already been done in A.N. Other browser but until the advent of Safari i was a poor deluded tabless ie user.

Marky
Oxford, England

One thing I really like about Camino is that I can Control+Click on the dock icon and see a listing of the items in the bookmark bar and being able to go directly to one of these items. How will (would) Safari implement something like this? And if it's done at all, would a user only see the bookmark bar items or other groups as well? And just to take it one step further, would selecting a group launch the group?

Thanks for listening and doing such a great job with Safari.

I actually like the idea of a side-drawer for tabs. I suspect that one's preference will relate to how many tabs one keeps open at the same time.

Using a vertically oriented list could be interesting because you could show an outline view of the tab-opening hierarchy. Picture this. Tabs created by other apps, or by a "create blank tab" command are top level. When you cmd-click on a link to create a new tab, that is a sub-level of the current level.

Barring that, I can see Dave's point about ordering new tabs 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, but it would be nice if, assuming I opened tab 7 from tab 1, closing 7 would take me back to 1.

Dave,

I agree with Lee... Folders are for organizing bookmarks topically whereas a "Tabbed Collection" usually moves across several different topics... So I would still need to organize Folders of bookmarks topically than create different folders of the bookmarks I would want to launch in a tabbed window.

It seems to me that you don't solve the problem of duplicating bookmarks within a user's setup. Although, trying to wrap my head around it, it doesn't really seem like duplication can be avoided at all.... Hmmmph...

Safari v.64 has a much better tab implementation. But there are still some glitches. If the number of tabs has reached the maximum number that may be visible on the tab strip minus 1. When opening the next link in a new tab the indicator that the url is loading is overlapped by the this ">>" menu title. This menu gives access to the tabs that are not visible.

I like the vertical strip list of tabs. Typically vertical height is more limited than horizontal. You can have a very long list of tabs without truncating names.

This is what I think of when I hear Tabs.

1. Tabs are a mechanism of opening multiple URLs without opening multiple windows. I ampathise with this. I am currently using the FullScreenSafari enhancer to basically do the same thing so I would definitely welcome tabs. (Safari team, could you add a preference for Cascading or Same place windows?)

2. I'm using a DSL connection. my connection is quick and reliable. in general, I don't need to open multiple bookmarks at the same time. I simply place folders of common bookmarks in my Bookmarks bar and everything's dandy. there are times though when I would like to be able to open all of my daily sites with a single click so Tabs and a 'tabbed' folder would be useful.

3. I would tend to use tabs more for opening windows in the background while reading an open page. a preference setting to say that command-click and shift-command-click open the URL in a tab rather than a new window would be welcome. if the user is going to use tabs, they will probably open new windows only occasionally in which case the command-n shortcut could be used. I would default the preference to opening a new window. 'power users' would be quick to see the preference and make the adjustment. with this system, each window would usually represent a single subject, a grouping of related URLs.

4. if tabs are going to be used by power users more than the 'others', perhaps aliases could be implemented in the Collections/Bookmarks panel. people could retain their bookmarks in their original grouping. in a folder marked for tab access (use an icon to show that the folder has been marked for tab access), they could then make aliases of their daily sites by option-command-dragging the bookmarks to the folder. original bookmarks could of course also be contained within the group folder. cleaning up tabs might be an issue. when the original is deleted, who is responsible for deleting child aliases? Safari or the user? obviously, it would be nicer if Safari could manage this.

5. instead of using the >> symbol to indicate that more tabs exist to the right, consider using a horizontal scrollbar for the tab bar with a scalable thumb. on the other hand, forget I said that. a list of the other tabs would be quicker to navigate than scrolling through them, and the list could include the full titles of the pages rather than just short truncations.

6. one thing that would be important to me. if the tab bar is full, how would I know if the URL I command-clicked has been added to the bar without clicking on the >> ? I often command-click multiple URLs in succession rather quickly. I know I should wait for the progress bar in the address field to move along and disappear before clicking the next URL but I'm sometimes a little impatient and hope that Safari will remember my clicks and process them automatically even while I continue to read the current page or move on to another page. should there be a tab counter next to the tab bar? an increment of the count would tell us that our click has been registered. is there a better idea?

regards
Gregory (still using v60 but it's great!)

v.64?? Haven't seen that one yet!

Lee's point doesn't make sense to me. He says he "runs through news sites in sequence". Well that's exactly where grouping makes sense. You choose one bookmark and 6 tabs are created to start loading your 6 news sites.

I'd be interested to see an implementation where the tabs go *above* the title bar since that seems a more logical location.

One tab implementation approach that Dave didn't discuss is the use of .ico's in the tab to make them slightly easier to distinguish. I don't have a preference at ths point.

Wondering if the search box will become configurable so that the drop down, instead of listing recent searches, lists different search sites (like eBay, dictionary.com, dmoz, alltheweb, etc.)

I'm not really an intelligent person so I'll keep this post simple:

I really like OAW's idea of tabs in sidebar with thumbnails. Maybe I'm biased since I'm a Graphic Designer and I like anything that is visually graphic rather than text (like the Dock) but I'm sure lot of power user on Mac are also a Graphic Designer.

I do like current tabs concept but I always felt that I have to force myself trying to use it rather than comfortably using it. Also I feel that in this area, Apple should innovate rather than using something that everyone else is using. You may say "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" but there's nothing wrong with improving it.

Either way, I still will love it :)

The terminology threw me. Then, yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

When you fill the tab bar with tabs instead of showing a >> icon wouldn't it make more sense just to make another bank of tabs below the first like you would see in a standard 3 ring binder. I know you would be sacrificing some verticle space but the advantage of having all tabs visible all the time would seem better.

Great job so far on safari.

I loaded Phoenix on a PC for a 70-year-old novice user and showed him tabs. HE ABSOLUTELY LOVES IT!

Everytime I see him he always thanks me for showing him that. He says he can't believe how he used the internet before.

One of the things that has always bothered me about Chimera/Camino's tab implementation is that while I can middle-click on an link to open a new tab, I can't middle-click on a tab to close the tab.

I realize that the MMB is the red-headed stepchild of the Mac realm, but it is still really handy for uses like this. Of course, having a close widget on each tab would nullify this want.

The functionality of tabbed browsing is a great experience and one which should be approached as desired by everyone, not just power users. Most users, including "average" users would glady use such functionality. Making it readily understood/graspable and available for non-"power users" as well should be the goal. That said...

Thumbnails. I know a number of "novices" or "average" users who would take advantage of "tablike" functionality, and thumbnails (with a text only option for "power" users) would go a long way towards making it evident visually they are temporarily "saving" or "marking" their place. As for thumbnails being too small to be usefull an 85x55ish thumbnail is enough to show general layout and jog the memory in a way a simple title can not...in a way which is less abstract and more evident for "novices" and "average" users. 12 of these thumbnails could be placed very easily in a vertical orientation on my browser window which is currently around 900x700. Bear in mind as an OS X only browser, both Chimera and Safari are essentially running on monitors with resolutions set at least 1024x768.

As for thumbnails being of no use to "power" users I beg to differ. I trade stocks on Ameritrade. I tend to have 4 Ameritrade "pages" open at a given time. Because these "pages" are actually frames, the URL and the page "title" are exactly the same for all 4 pages. Thus, tabs or text only monikers are useless to me. The only way I know what pages I am swapping between are by my own motor memory of where I opened them. I can honestly tell you an 85x55 thumbnail is enough for me to distinguish by general content which page is which. Thus they give me far more useful feedback than text alone.

Tab close buttons. IMHO a close button on every tab is bad UI. The tab bar is a high traffic mousing/clicking area...in fact in encourages it. By having a close button on every tab you place a "destructive" element potentially every 100 pixels or so (depending on number of tabs open) or less in that highly active area. There is a great potential for accidentally clicking a tab a bit too much to one side.

Hyatt wrote: "The requests for tabs are coming from an extremely vocal minority of technically inclined people, as are virtually all of Safari's other feature requests, since those are really the majority of people using Safari at this point."

So... umm... the vocal minority is the majority? Or something? I don't get it.... The current majority is soon to be the minority! As soon as Safari becomes the Macintosh default browser. That's it then.

How about moving tabs? I have never used Opera (except briefly the Mac OS X beta), but not being able to organize my tabs has always gotten on my nerves.

I still wonder why no one has tried saving the parent tab explicitly on tab creation, and always jumping back to said parent. It might work, it might not, it is worth trying.

IMHO one of the best applications of the tabbed browsing is Netcaptor (even though it is for Windows).

There's several things to borrw from there:

1. Tabs are below - easier to follow. May be little problematic in OSX. The basic idea is that tabs are clearly separable from content and from the rest of the menu.
2. Separate icons for sites opened (green), connected or partly opened (yellow) and not yet connected (red). Later thei implemented ico displaying which happens after the page is loaded.
3. Tabs open on background, so the site You're looking at does not change.
4. Order of the tabs doesn't change while opening the pages.
5. Tab-groups are under special menu and NOT in bookmarks menu. Makes tab-groups opening easy and fast cause they are often the sites, one visits most often. So, it has to be fluid.
6. "Open all bookmarks in folder" command, found in every bookmark subfolder.

Just my 2 cents.

Tabs upside down!
Tabs has ALWAYS been attatced to the area they reprecent.
Strange that Hyatt do not discus this issue.

Two bars with textinfo on top of each other is bad UI in my opinion.

"I have, however, found one thing I truly love, implemented in Phoenix. There is a built in option to open new tabs using the middle mouse button. This feature makes for extremely simple browsing. I liked it so much that I actually assigned my mousewheel to cmd-click, as to “implement” this feature within Camino." --Etan

I'm no expert, so apologies in advance if I am mistaken, but I think the middle button was implemented in Mozilla 1.1 or 1.2. Chim--er, Camino(TM) is still on 1.0.1, or so says ...

... who said that? one of the blogs? I'm a very confused user here ...

... but anyway, "the development team plans to move to the Mozilla trunk for the next release," quoth Mozillazine.

It's definitely my favorite shortcut too. :D

Another way to handle tabs is AFAIK the way "Crazy Browser" does it - for those who never heard of CB, it's a GUI over IE's engine (for Windows) - let me explain:

On Safari (and many others) you can combine a mouse click with one or several keys to open a link in a new tab.
Well, Crazy Browser let you do that (Shift-click), but you can achieve the same result by clicking with the scroll wheel button (the third button). Nothing special here, as you could map the buttons of your mouse with keyboard shortcuts; but the very nice thing is that: by shift-clicking (or scroll-whell-clicking) on the tab, you actually close it !

It may seems uninteresting at first but Safari's method, of clicking on the tiny close button on the tab, is probably easier to understand, but less effective.

I'm not asking to get rid of the close button, but rather to add the possibility of using a keys+click combination (same one used to open a link in a new tab) to close it. It could be like all those "secret" combinations hidden in the Finder.

What do you think ?

K.

One of the reason why I think the close button method is ineffective is that when you switch to another tab, you could inadvertently close it... I know that, because it happens all the time.

There is another issue with this: if you inadvertently (I know, I know, I should be less clumsy) click twice on the close button, you close the tab and very often you also close its neighbour.
Since the tabs shift to the left when you close a tab (placed on their left), the second click is memorized, and acts on the close button of the next tab. Ugly.

This is especially true with new users who tend to double-click on everything.

And for what I know, tabs are used by beginners.
At least my girlfriend does.

And she's no power-user.

Sigh.

K.

For me, the current (v64) implementation is perfect. I rarely open more than four tabs. And my largest set is 9 bookmarks. Never having used sets in Chimera/Camino I can't imagine any other way to do it than this. It's so intuitive and logical.

Having the close-box on the tab never bothers me either, as there's plenty of space to click on that's non-destructive. There are some visual bugs with the >>-menu, but I'm sure that will be ironed out before the next public release.

As tabs go, Safari has pretty much perfected it. Yes, even the way they point upwards instead of down.

As for tabs being centered vs. left-aligned, this of course also depends on how much you ("Shiny Fruit") - hypothetically! :-) - plan to integrate the use of tabs on a system-wide level: as we all know, in OS X "ordinary" tabs (see System Preferences) are always centered - a good thing, IMHO.

Safari, of course, should try to be coherent with the "general" OS X behavior, rather than using its own separate conventions (even if followed by almost all other tabbed browsers: tabs beginning from the left, Windows/Linux-style).

I guess these problems will be solved in the future, when there'll be more clarity about the implementation of the tabbed viewing model at an as wide as possible level - maybe involving, besides the main application window, also the Finder (rather tightly integrated with Safari - à la KDE Konqueror - or still - in a more Classic style - "independent" from Safari? Personally, I prefer the KDE approach, but many people still seem to consider this rather "un-Mac-like"), the Dock, the Menu Bar, etc...

From the screenshots (*ahem*), it looks to me like Safari's tab implementation for some reason leaves 10px on the left and 10px on the right unused, for little reason that I can understand. Why was this done?

Also, are there any plans to allow drag-and-drop rearrangement of tabs under Safari? That's the one feature I've been missing in all tabbed browsers!

I would like to have an easy option to make a window a tab and the other way around. I would also like to have an option to move a tab from one window to another.
This would be very handy when it comes to browsing up information in google or any other search engine. I often have the need to categorize the search results and would like to arrange each category in a different window.

Regards,
Dirk

Great text, thanks for sharing.
I wish you'd do this more often :-)

good lord... you think way too much. its just freakin' tabs... implement it the way you like 'em, and everyone will learn to live with it (or not).

nice browser though.

;-)

Heh. Dave, your blog just got SlashDotted. Enjoy!

I just wanted to add that I prefer Mozilla's single close button for all tabs, because it means I can always click in the same spot to close a tab. I have been playing with Galeon the last few days, and having to look to see which tab I'm currently on, then click the close button, is annoying. Especially if you want to close several windows in a row, you have to keep moving the mouse around to do it.

Honestly though, I mostly use ctrl-w to close the current tab. Of course, sometimes I accidentally hit ctrl-q and quit the entire browser. Doh! Galeon does have one nice feature there - they have a "There are multiple tabs/windows open - are you sure you want to quit?" dialog pop up if you do that with more than a single tab open.

"It's much better to avoid moving all of the tabs around when a single new tab opens, and left-aligning the tabs inside the tab strip makes for a much less jarring experience."

Do you happen to know any one coding the dreadful Dock.app? I am glad there is still someone in Apple knows that making users to chase moving targets is a BAD thing.

Here's another vote for thumbnails in a drawer or pane along the side of the browser window. Thumbnails would give a visual reminder of the page when just a few pages are open, and would shrink down to 16x16 .icos when the user has many pages open...this provides more information and visual cues than current tab implementations, as page titles are often ambiguous. There could be a preference to always show the 16x16 .icos instead of the thumbnails...this would be similar to how current tabs work. I agree with Jesse...provide an easy-to-understand interface for basic users that can be customized via preferences for more advanced users. Thumbnails/icons along the side of the window would allow more pages to be displayed at once, and it's often helpful to preserve vertical space in browser windows. Users could choose whether to show the drawer/pane on the left or right side. Plus, users could control how much of the page titles are shown before being truncated (and how large the default thumbnails are) by adjusting the width of the drawer/pane...again, giving more control and customization than current tab implementations provide.

Yes, Dave, that's all well and good.

But what we really want to know is:

what TV shows are you watching?

what video games are you playing?

For God's sake, man - why the sudden silence?

I'd have to strongly disagree with the notion that novice users have no useful purpose for tabs. I recently reinstalled Mozilla on my parents' computer after a hard drive crash, and one of the main things they told me they missed about Mozilla (vs. IE) was the tabbed browsing capability.

Also, my coworker recently upgraded to Netscape 7.02, and really likes tabs. In a manner of days he switched to using tabs extensively.

Both of these examples are definitely in the "novice user" group, as I can attest to by my frequent "tech support" calls from them.

Troy

The only thing I prefer over your recommendations is to NOT replace tabs when opening a folder of tabs.... I think replacement is a valid concept, but appending tabs is potentially more valuable for the both the novice and experienced user... I did a quick survey of folks here at our office (about 20 panifully novice people and 10 very experience users) and they all expected that action to open new tabs - not replace the ones that were there...

If you really don't like appending as the default, perhaps a command-click on "open in tabs" could make it append new tabs?

Before I go:

I am astounded by the amazing quality and quantity of feedback you are providing. I can't speak for all web developers, but I'd venture to say that this blog is BY FAR the best 'gift' we've been given in years. You are the best thing to have happened to Apple in years. Your skill combined with your obvious concern for those of us in this industry is very refreshing. You should be very proud of your work - we are!

Thanks,
John Jarrard

Hey, thanks for the Phoenix implementation of tabs! I love it! I never knew who to thank for for it, but it rocks.

Just what is the BIG deal with Tabbed browsing? I tried it, I hate it. The whole tabbed browsing thing reminds me too much of a windows interface where there was one parent window which contained multiple windows. This is NOT the mac way and should be shot and left out back for dead, never to be revived.

Dave, want a _good_ idea, add "Open Link BEHIND current Window" ala OmniWeb. These guys have the right idea. While I am scanning a web page, say Slashdot and there are articles that I want to read AFTER I get done reading the main page then this works woderfully. As I encounter a link that I want to read a bit later I use this command, the new page opens behind the current window and I keep reading. No extra mouse clicks to move the damn thing out of the way. I will open multiple new windows on a regular basis and this is the best solution that I have seen. No new interface elements to figure out (Close buttons on Tabs!?!? What the heck is that all about...)

You are right when you say your target audience is a Novice. This is a Mac and things are EASY to do with standard UI metaphors that hold amond ALL apps. If this is going to be the default browser that Apple decides to use wouldn't it be prudent to follow your own Human Interface Guidlines? I believe some where in there it will say ONE document PER window, NOT Multiple Documents PER window. THat is the MS and X-Window Guidelines, NOT the Mac's.
Now If I have a single tab open, does this one tab take up my valuable Vertical real estate? I am already fighting the Dock for space I do not need any more apps needlessly stealing more space and using that space in an inefficient manner.
Now, evidently I am in the minority on this so good luck to me getting my point across but I just cannot believe _that_ many people want tabbing browsing. I would put forth the theory that the tabbed "guys" are just a vocal minority and not the Majority. The majority are the Novice to Mid level users that just want a no frills browser that simply works.

Cheers to all.
Mike Jackson8

My opinion differs from yours on the subject of tab groups.

I was very happy when mozilla switched to an append model for group opening. I don't like not knowing when my browser is going to leave a page that i might still be using. I only have one group, and am vigilant about closing tabs when i'm done with them, so i don't think of replacing one group with another.

Random complaint: when will mozilla be able to open an individual bookmark in a new tab?

With regard to close boxes, I currently use XChatAqua, an Aqua port of the X11 XChat IRC program. The tabs it uses for different channels contain an "X" close button on the left of the tab.

I found this infuriating. Even the slightest sloppiness in where you click on the tab could inadvertantly close the channel.

I apparently was not alone in my frustration, as the newest version released this week contains a "Hide Tab Close Boxes" preference.

I personally have no problem with cmd-w to close tabs. I use a two button mouse, so I right-click and select close often on the tabs in Camino.

With regard to close boxes, I currently use XChatAqua, an Aqua port of the X11 XChat IRC program. The tabs it uses for different channels contain an "X" close button on the left of the tab.

I found this infuriating. Even the slightest sloppiness in where you click on the tab could inadvertantly close the channel.

I apparently was not alone in my frustration, as the newest version released this week contains a "Hide Tab Close Boxes" preference.

I personally have no problem with cmd-w to close tabs. I use a two button mouse, so I right-click and select close often on the tabs in Camino.

I agree that the (uh, hypothetical) hanging tabs are counterintuitive. Tabs don't have anything to do with the bookmark bar, but everything to do with the document below them.

Just a thought.

The only thing I think you didn't address here was how to switch between tabs in a browser session. I use Phoenix all the time, and when I open a new tab, I want to be able to Control-Tab back to the previous tab in a stack method, which is how windows implements task switching. The default behavior is to cycle through the tabs.

I (like some others above) also really like a vertical list of tabs (as can be configured in galeon). I can have 20 tabs open (it's convenient -- anything I haven't finished reading, or want to look at again later I can just keep open), not use too much screen space (got plenty of horizontal space, but not so much vertical space -- besides which, it's to hard to read things which are really wide anyway whereas it's good to have lots of text visible vertically), and still be able to see enough of the title to be able to distinguish between tabs (with horizontal tabs, after 10 tabs or so, all I see is the first letter or two).

To make this sort of web "browsing" practical, it's essential to be able to drag tabs around (changing the order within a tab strip, or moving them between windows). galeon's crash-recovery feature (in wish it reloads the pages it had open when it crashed, or was killed) is also a godsend, as is its ability to save sessions (though I wish it were more convenient to automatically save/reload a single session). On the other hand, I really don't use bookmarks enough to care deeply about it (but galeon's bookmarks seem reasonable).

On the other hand, contrary to your opinion, I really hate having the close tab button on the actual tab itself. I much prefer mozilla's single, fixed close button (and am pissed off that galeon doesn't offer such a button as an option). I realize it's confusing and less intuitive, but: (a) having a button on each tab uses extra horizontal space; (b) it's awkward and hazardous when selecting or dragging tabs around (too easy to accidentally close tabs); and (c) with a global button, I know where the button is and don't have to look for it, whereas with a button on the tab, I have to look for the current tab....

(While I'm bitching about galeon, and also mozilla for that matter: Why can't they properly handle keyboard shortcuts?!? Why do shortcuts for changing between tabs, or closing a tab, etc. not work half the time (e.g., when a page is just starting to load in a tab). "Focus" problems, I guess. Sheesh.)

I should also note that I never use sidebars or any such things, thus preserving my horizontal space for said list of tabs. I currently have my tab strip on the right hand side, though maybe the left would be better (to prevent accidentally changing tabs when using the scrollbar, and vice versa).

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who has a problem with the "upside down" tabs approach in v. 62. Again, if "multi-page single window" browsing is going to be implemented via tabs (and I'm OK with that personally), PLEASE turn them "right side up" so they make visual sense.

So, when will Mozilla support opening tab groups by opening a folder? ;-)

I think this is a great feature.

I would also like the ability to select multiple bookmarks, using SHIFT-click, and have them open in multiple tabs.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for your work on tabs in Mozilla. This is a feature I use every day!

So I read about 70% of the comments and didn't see this one and I am on my way to work so hopefully this is no repeat ----- but, what about tabs sitting on the right or left side of the browser, or the option of it. I think this solves the drawer interface issues (I atually like the idea of drawers, but others seem not to...) so that you still have text rather than a graphic indicator, and you don't loose that oh so precious vertical space. Considering that the ibook, emac, and classic imac are the only products (to my knowledge) left that are not wide screen, I think this is to Safari's benefit. I know personally, on my Ti, I have soooo much space to the left and right of my browser which goes completely unused. When I open a tab I just want to cry.
In regards to new tab ordering, I am leaning towards new tabs open next to the parent tab. That might be my right brain dominance showing through.
Better yet, if safari could let you choose between tab placement to the center, left, right, or (why not) bottom, and let you choose the tab ordering process, then it would be the ultimate browser. David, are you listening.

And yes, tabs need to be attached to the respective pages, not to the address bar. Another user enabled option possibly? - Babak

Tabbed browsing to me has always seemed like an extra, unneeded abstraction layer between you and your computer. Most modern GUIs already practice tabbed computing using something equivalant to a taskbar, displaying "tabs" of all applications running. An internet browser is nothing but an application. It is not a special, magical multi-pronged all consuming thing as an OS is. While taskbars definitely could benefit from some of your suggestions, I dont see why we cant utilize a unified tab interface for all applications.

Tabs make sense for browsing. They don't violate any guidelines. The "upside down" tabs make more sense if you hide the useless bookmark bar. I'd like to see an implementation of tabs *above* the title bar. Thumbnails a la Preview would be awful.

I haven't tried Safari, but I found my tabbing experience in Phoenix disconcerting.

A closed tab in Opera is replaced by the previously open tab (just like a closed maximized window in a windowing system is replaced by the previous window on top) whereas in Phoenix it is replaced by one of the adjacent tabs. Was a stack really that hard to implement or is there a logical justification for the behaviour used?:)

I was wondering why a "drag & drop" interface hasn't been implemented yet. I would like to be able to move my tabs around into the order I like. I would also like to be able to drag tabs off the current window to a different window or to be opened in a new window. And to be able to drag windows to become tabs. What would it take for this to be implemented?

"In Phoenix, you replace instead, so the News tabs go away and are replaced by tabs 6-10."

Assuming that this is the way tabbed browsing in Safari will work, I believe there is a way to give users the best of both the append and replace worlds.

When a user selects the "open in tabs" option for a folder within a browser in use (one that has one or more pages loaded / loading), give the user the option to open the requested tab collection in a new window.

This could either be done through a prompt, or, better still (I come from the "prompts should be used only when nothing else will work" school), could be an option in the ctrl-click (aka right-click) window ("Open Tabs in New Window"). This option would pro-actively reduce the threat of losing browsing progress, and would do it in a way that leaves the user in control, and do it prompt-free.

Beauty.

Somewhat related suggestion - based on what I've seen, it looks like Safari's ctrl/right-click menu on url's gives "open in new window" as the first option, and "open in new tab" as the second - my feeling is that a power user (the type to open multiple windows) is more likely to opt for the tab in most cases, and will reach for the new window option less frequently. (Once they've embraced tabs, that is.)

BTW, while I'm posting, - love that you're sharing your thoughts (and opening yourself to the suggestions of others) with your blog. Speaks volumes for you, is great for us visitors and software users, and is great for Apple (both in feedback and helping users feel connected to the company). Cheers.

Clusters

I came up with this idea in a brief communique with the guy at look-designs who put together the mockup you reference. Like lee underwood above, I don't open up a bunch of alike tabs, I open a bunch of unlike tabs, so one thread might be blogs, one might be work, one might be community, whatever. Let's call them threads 1, 2 and 3. Then under thread 1 I might end up opening a blog in a tab, another tab for a trackback to it, and a third tab for a link from it. Let's call these A, B & C. And the same happens for threads 2 & 3 with M,N & O and X,Y & Z, so before you know it I've got 9 tabs open (and they all scrunch up so I can't read the title on any of them). Not so useful.

What I would like to see is clusters of tabs, if you will. (There's probably a better word). Splurge on the real-estate and make TWO rows of tabs. The top row would have threads 1, 2 and 3 and the bottom row would have A, B and C. Then if I was in A and I clicked on B, it would switch to B. But if I was in A and I clicked on 2, A, B & C would disappear and be replaced by M, N & O, and the same with 3 & X, Y & Z. That way I'd be able to quickly switch among all 9 tabs, clustered by theme, and still be able to read the title of each tab when I'm in it.

Now I know I could do this just by opening windows 1, 2 & 3 and then having only tabs A, B & C in window 1 and so on, but the whole point of tabs is we're trying to get away from cluttering up the screen with multiple windows, aren't we?

And PLEASE make the tab state persistant between launches. That's what I love about Multizilla the most.

I think there's an argument to be made against close buttons on the tabs themselves from a usability point of view. First of all, it's easy to miss your target and close a tab instead of switching to it. We don't want a repeat of the braindead idea the windows designers had of putting the close button right next to the maximise button, which has led to many a string of curses.

Secondly, if the tab close button is on the tab handle itself, then your muscle memory won't pick up on the location of the close button, since the close button will switch places all the time. Imagine if the window close button followed right behind the window title (you can make KDE do this with some putzing around in the settings panel). How infuriating that would be because of constant misclicks. With tabs it's much the same. The only way to make closing tabs effortless is by placing the close button in a fixed location, just like mozilla does it.

Still, I agree with everything else you said Dave. Mozilla's append instead of replace operation is indead braindead and highly unintuitive. A bookmark replaces the current page, but a group bookmark appends. Where's the logic in that?

Do you remember when only power users used Google? Tabs are like that. Once you show someone tabbed browsing (or even browsing in multiple windows), they get the point immediately. It just has to take its time spreading, because it's something that people have to be shown working.

I prefer (as a power user) mozilla+multizilla. I haven't analysed it much, but it does everything I expect it to.

Brian's right...what we're actually dealing with are the concepts of single- and multiple-document window models in an operating system environment. It seems that perhaps both models are useful at different times and for different users.

This raises the question of whether we need a better way to view, manage, and switch between windows on the desktop, a better way to view, manage, and switch between documents in a window, or both.

Even if the operating system currently allows users to rather easily switch between single-document windows, the multiple-document window has the benefit of showing titles/icons/tabs/thumbnails for all of the open documents at once. This requires just 1 click to switch between documents instead of a few clicks to select a new single-document window from a list or menu.

The multiple-document window model also allows the creation of multiple windows with multiple documents per window. In effect, this allows an extra level of grouping open documents into windows that the single-document window model doesn't provide.

If we were to stick with the single-document window model, what improvements could be made to allow users to more easily view all the open windows at once and switch between them?

Should the multiple-document window model be implemented as an option on the operating system level, to be used in Safari as well as other applications? There seems to be a great demand for this method of working with documents. So, do changes need to happen at the document/window level, or at the window/desktop level?

This seems like an important issue to be settled by Dave and the Safari team as well as Apple's OS designers in general. Has this question of window/document design and theory been addressed by Apple on the operating system level? I can't find any place in the Human Interface Guidelines where this has been specifically discussed or where a definite opinion has been stated. Anyone? Thoughts, Dave?

Multizilla (http://multizilla.mozdev.org/) for Mozilla gives you the options to choose ANY of the different behaviors discussed in this article and many many more. The end user decides how tabs should behave. Funny idea there, the end user deciding how they would like to work.

"tabs make sense for browsing. They don't violate any guidelines. The "upside down" tabs make more sense if you hide the useless bookmark bar. I'd like to see an implementation of tabs *above* the title bar. Thumbnails a la Preview would be awful."

While I AGREE that the tabs look "better" when the Bookmarks Bar is hidden, I completely and totally DISAGREE that the Bookmarks Bar is "useless". It quite simply is how I QUICKLY navigate to 95+ percent of my favorite sites. Empirically it is just faster. If I have a link there, it's just one click to go to that site. If I have a folder there, it's just one "downclick, navigate, and upclick" action to go to a site. Using the Bookmarks Menu ALWAYS entails an extra step. Using the Bookmarks Window is even slower!

The bottom line is that the Bookmarks Bar is a pre-existing feature of Safari that should be respected by the visual look of the "tabs". I also contend that it is a widely used feature as well. The "upside down" look of the tabs makes it appear at first glance that you are selecting items in the Bookmarks Bar above instead of the page content below. Quite simply, it is very VISUALLY CONFUSING ... and I haven't seen a SINGLE REASON why it is "good" for them to appear that way. One would think that turning them "right side up" wouldn't require a major rewrite of Safari, so it baffles me why the Safari team INSISTS on this "bass-ackwards" approach. I have NEVER seen another piece of software that attached tabs to items ABOVE in order to switch between content BELOW!

Perhaps Dave or someone else on the Safari team can address their thinking regarding this issue?

OAW

I've always been against tabbed browsers. They are a ui nightmare and Safari's are the worst.
Why do the tabs hang down? What has the tab got to do with the bookmarks bar? Is the 'tabbed' page somehow connected to the link in the book mark bar? NO. Open your nearest filing cabinet. Do the tabs hang off the bottom of the folders? NO.
Moving between Safarai's tabs with a track pad is a pain. I, and I think most people, browse left to right. When moving to the next tab to the right it is far too easy to close the tab when you click on it.
One positive note. You can turn tabs off.

On where new Tabs open...

I see that Dave Hyatt doesn't like the idea of new tabs appearing in the middle. He goes on to say that opening a new one in the middle makes all the other tabs move. Bravo Dave!

I've waited years for someone at Apple to figure out that an interface element that changes size and moves its contents around is a bad thing. That's one of the main reasons why the Dock is such a poor interface element. Any chance you can talk some sense into the OS designers?

One issue that is quite important to me is the way the Command+W keyboard shortcut works in the tabbed browsers. The standard behavior, which is to close tabs individually, is unacceptable from a UI perspective. Command+W is universally tied to the close window function. It is the equivalent to selecting Close from the File menu or clicking the close window bar widget. To alter the function of this combo in response to the demand of a certain segment of users is simply wrong. There are many keys on the keyboard left unassigned. The Close Tab command could be assigned to any of those, but it shouldn't be assigned to a universal I am in no way criticizing the tremendous efforts and genius of Hyatt and Co., but I'd love to hear if they've given any thought to this issue.

I'd love tabs as thumbnails in a drawer.
I'm perplexed by the opinions against this solution. If drawers were a bad idea (take up too much horizontal space, etc.) then they shoudn't be part of OS X's UI. The Mail app uses a drawer. The Preview app uses a drawer with thumbnails. How come their drawers don't seem to use up too much space ? The Safari team is doing a great job, but I'd be concerned if every app group at Apple started defining their own UI conventions, different from the other apps. What next, getting rid of sheets ?

What is a drawer with thumbnails (Preview being the model) ? It's basically a "local dock". So in my mind it fits in perfectly with OS X's UI paradigm.

The drawer with thumbnails solution provides rich visual feedback and adresses the name truncation problem. And at least for me, it's vertical space that is at a premium : what with the dock's default position, Safari's toolbar, the bookmarks bar and widescreen displays.

I guess I just don't like having too many toolbars one on top of the other. I find the tab bar underneath the two other toolbars confusing; specifically for issues of scope : why do the back, text size or stop/reload buttons affect only the active tab and not all tabs, for example ? What is the scope of the toolbars with respect to the tabs ? Some actions affect only the active tab, some replace the content of multiple tabs...

The drawer solution clearly separates the "tabs" from the controls reducing this scoping problem.

Drawer/thumbnails tabs would also exploit a UI convention that sets OS X apart. If nothing else they would make Safari stand out from other browsers and make the Mac stand out from other platforms.

I'm not suggesting to make Safari be different for the sake of being different, but Safari is a fantastic chance for Apple to break the mould and bring something new to browsers. If anybody should try something new (and different) it's the Safari guys. Try it out and see what works best. Better yet, let's us users / beta testers try it.

I haven't once accidentally closed a tab with a mouse or a track pad. If this really was a problem, they could easily switch to only displaying a close x on the active tab.

They will obviously keep cmd-w as "Close tab". Changing this would drive virtually everyone nuts. Pretend a tab is a window and stop quoting HCI guidelines already!

Re: tab opening order.

Maybe it's just me, but I suspect other power-users think like this. I'd like to see tabs be in what I call "tree order". Start with a tab being the root of a tree. When I open a bookmark or a typed-in URL, that becomes a sibling. When I "open link in new tab", that becomes a child. The tabs are then displayed in tail-recursive DFS order. Got that? :-)

So, I start in Slashdot. This is tab 1. I open three stories ("Read More...") in tabs. These become 2-4. Tab order is 1 2 3 4. Then, in tab 3, I open a link in a tab. This is tab 5. Now, in tab 2, I open two more links. These are tabs 6 and 7. Tab order is 1 2 6 7 3 5 4. If I then type in "http://memepool.com" in the URL bar, this becomes tab 8, and ordering is 1 2 6 7 3 5 4 8.

I get left-to-right browsing, plus "related" tabs are near each other.

It gets slightly tricky when closing tabs, and I'm sure there's a correct way to figure out what tab should be topmost when you do, but this textbox is too small to contain my proof.

I think the Folder Options feature is the way to go with Safari. It works great in Phoenix!

The Replace vs. Append problem could be solved with a simple toggle in the preferences. Another useful preference would be to open the new tabs in the background.

Opening new tabs always on the far right is best. :-) But please let use shuffle the order around.

Close boxes on the tabs rule. Hypothetically.

Keep up the great work, Dave!

- David

News at 11: -Hypothetical- replaces -snappy- as mac buzzword of choice.

I'm not familiar with Apple browsers but I prefer Galeon style to the other mozilla heirs, including k-meleon, with closing buttons in each tab, instead o just one or no buttonsl.

But also I would like to have the lateral navigators opening in any side of screen, if there are lot of tabs open on that side; Galeon only has it on right.

>> A power user doesn't want thumbnails, since they wouldn't be easily distinguishable anyway once you opened several tabs, the overflow mechanism for such a system would be clumsy (or would use too much space, scrollbar anyone?), and you lose too much horizontal real estate. <<

Boy, does this power user disagree! I'd *much* rather glance at a thumbnail than read the truncated/squished titles of web pages (that are already too long) within the tabs! I typically only need 3 or 4 tabs anyway; and if the images get smaller (or disappear) to fit, then so be it!

Horizontal real estate isn't really an issue, since most web sites are relatively constrained, horizontally. It's *vertical* real estate that's important. So the example of thumbnails to the right is absolutely brilliant!

Count this as a vote in *strong* favor.

A couple of posters have commented on the the apparent 'upside down' tabs possibly coming to Safari, usually in the negative.

It seems to me that the implementation is accurately suggesting the logical link between the toolbar buttons, and the current tab, though I'd agree that the Bookmarks bar in between, breaks this concept somewhat.

But is that link more important that the link between the page title, it's close widget, and the page content?

I'd add another vote for drag and drop ordering of tabs, and definitely the ability to switch a tab to a separate window... I guess this could be achieved via a 'Open page in new window' contextual menu item, a la IE, but you're then left to close the original tab, whereas a control-click on the tab would be a good power user feature, invisible to those not using tabs.

As a less important feature, I quite like how Chimera/Camino uses page favicons in the bookmarks bar, although that does make you a little dependent upon the quality of the icons! Yes, these things matter to me! : )

Finally, hopefully Safari will be able to eek out a little more performance; I don't see a huge difference from Camino, which actually loads JPEGs faster (or appears to), loading progressive JPEGs, whereas Safari appears to pre-load the image first (when loading a JPEG directly, rather than inline.)

The implementation of the folders in the bookmark bar in v64 rocks! I totally agree that this is much batter than the bookmark groups in Chimera.

* Tab opening/ordering : I prefer 1 2 7 6 5 3 4 rather than 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Both are flat paradigms.
My wish is 1 2 2.1 2.2 2.3 3 4, i.e. a tree paradigm. Closing the 2.3 tab would focus the 2.2 (left move), closing the 2.2 with the 2.3 still open would focus the 2.3 (right move, or no move but shift).
This ordering gives you both features you can read the pages in the order you opened them. Closing fall back to the open-from page.
* opening bunch of tab (_IF_ you need it) : As already stated, this is a different concept than the bookmarks folder. So you need a different paradigm, call it "working sets" or "workspace". The bookmarks page in Safari already have, in his "collections" column several different paradigms. Adding here a "Working sets" might be a solution. But then you must implement drag an drop of bookmarks as an alias scheme with automatic deletion with the destination bookmark. The "snapshot" way of creating inital sets seems valuable to me.

Safari is great job. Thanks to all.

Of course you haven't heard requests for tabs from novice users, since by your definition, novice users don't make requests like these (i.e. post in discussion boards, send technical email). So if a novice user suggested it he'd automatically become a power user, and not count. :-)

I wish people would stop whining about tabs being upside down in safari. It's a simple concept, each tab represents a different window controller, that's why you see the URL and title change when you click each tab. The part where the pages are displayed is just a viewer, not a controller. It wouldn't make sense for you to click on a tab that's attached to the viewer, and the URL and window title change out of the blue.

I hate to do this, but I think the entire idea of "tabs" is functionally useful, but mataphorically bogus. A tab changes information within a tab view; it switches tab contexts, while "global" controls remain outside. Some may argue that the main bar in Safari would be global, but they do act in a tab-specific way. What's happening is, you have some controls, then a "tab" which is really a different route to the web page view, then the view itself.

http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/~mflider/safari62_original.jpg

Maybe a better metaphor would be not tabs at all, but rather paths, or portals:

http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/~mflider/safari62_modified.jpg

Now there's a visual connction between the main controls, the web page itself, and the "tab" selector.

"...because novice users don't ever use multiple views of Web data. They just browse from page to page."

Alan Cooper makes a good point: don't design for novices, because it's easy to learn a well-designed interaction and move into "competent average user." For the same reason, don't design for experts, because few people bother to become experts.

It would seem obvious that user research and usability testing could determine: what your actual customers want and understand, and whether your design is sucessful or not.

With so many people mentioning window width, I got inspired to write a short AppleScript script for Safari. "Safari Width" 1.0 lets you easily set the width of the frontmost Safari window. It displays a list of screen widths from 160 to 1600, including the current window's width (which is already sorted and highlighted in the list) and an "" item in case the list isn't long enough for you. ;)

Known limitations: windows are always set flush to upper left, and there's no readme file yet.

Great for Web developers.

On a Tab note, I got an idea for a compatible scripting model:

window
. Properties:
. . current tab --id of tab
. Elements:
. . tab --by name, id, or index
. . . name
. . . id
. . . URL
. . . index

For "tree-based" tab lists, perhaps there could be a 'parent id' property of a tab, or the id could be "zoned" like IP addresses; either way, it should be extensible from a flat implementation.

-Walter

'and an "" item'

Oops. Make that 'and an "(Other...)" item'

I forgot what this board does with angle brackets. (Hey, can we have a little note about that by the form?)

Ack, and forgot again! Here's the script's URL:

http://www.natural-innovations.com/files/safari-width-10.scpt.sitx

-Walter

" It's a simple concept, each tab represents a different window controller"

Joe Average user shouldn't have to understand the concept in view-model-controller to use a ui!!! That's plain ridiculous.

I assume it's a bug that cmd+w sometimes closes the current tab and sometimes closes all tabs and the window. Damn annoying.

About accidentally hitting the close button of a tab
when you meant to front a tab (which I've done and
then you have to try to get 'em back from History),
I think this can happen more often when one is
using a trackpad (instead of a mouse) ... I used to be
so accurate with my desktop mouse but on a portable
trackpad, it's just easier to make little pointing errors.

Also, about cmd-w closing tabs/windows, another
thing that's bitten me there is when I'm in the cmd-f
(find) dialog and I could cancel it using cmd-. but
sometimes I forget and type cmd-w ... it has closed
my window sometimes, and I only wanted the little
find dialog to get that keystroke;

I like Mozilla's close tab thing. If each tab had an X to close it, that would be ok, too.

I don't like the idea of closing the whole tab strip with the X. It's counterintuitive and contrary to what I've learned from using Moz.

Maybe you could make it like the close-box for the window and have the red X appear when the mouse is over it.

Sorry about the fake email. Too much spam lately.

I like Camino's "Bookmark All Tabs in Group" since it makes it so I have fewer bookmarks. I 'tabmark' all of my Mac news sites and Mac rumor sites so I can refresh them all at the same time. This also gives me single click access to these pages, which is really conveinient. I can see a command or option click bringing up a menu of the sites in the tabmark so you can open an individual page. In Safari v64, the open in tabs option is nice but that still takes two clicks and more time. It also means I need more folders so I don't have more pages open than I want. And since Safari has only a single bookmark line, I can only have a few folders, which makes browsing a pain. In Camino, I only use folders for sites I access less frequently. I have tabmarks for all my Mac news sites (3) and Mac rumor sites (3). The rest I keep as single links. I try and keep my bookmark bar at 2 lines or less.

In summary, tabmarking is a fast and conveinient way to bring up a couple related sites. The fewer clicks the better.

About Where do new tabs open.
I am for JUST TO THE RIGHT solution, or better a preference option to enable it.

I found ON THE FAR RIGHT solution very confusing.

Think Differenet

If it's functionally useful, who cares if it's metaphorically bogus? Metaphors are only worth carrying forward if they help people use the interface.

Simple behavior is better than complex behavior, even if the complex behavior is logically consistent according to some sophisticated internal model. The reason is that the typical user is never going to bother to figure out that internal model.

I've heard it argued that even the stack-based standard behavior of a Web browser Back button is too complicated; most users expect it to page back through previous pages visited in temporal order, and are surprised when it doesn't do that.

An alternate view.

One thing that some recent MS products do right and many others (e.g. OS X, GNOME, KDE) don't, is have freely-movable toolbars. For exampe, in IE 5 or above on Windows, I can move the button toolbar on to the end of the menu bar, so they share a line. This saves a chunk of wasted screen space.

Multizilla, for example, wastes a LOT of acreage this way.

But there's more.

In Office, to name but one, I can put the toolbars on the left and right of the screen. In Word, for example, this means I can keep more of my document on screen, which is what matters most.

Where tabs should go, IMHO, is down the left or right hand side. Then, rather than scaling tabs down so that titles become illegible or they are impossible to activate without clicking the Close button, just spawn a new row of tabs, like a multi-row tabbed dialog box. Simple and effective and doesn't waste reams of screen acreage.

I was annoyed with one behavior, but found no good answer to this. When you open you 'open in tabs' a folder bookmark bar it happen that the first tab is the foreground one. So you first read it and then close it and gfet the second one. The annoying thing is that all the tabs move one place (from right to left) because the first one just disappear. So I wonder if it would be better to activate the last one (right most one), activating one another from right to left removing the annoying move of tabs which disturb the user attention, taling him away from his task for just a moment, but it is too much if it can be avoided.
Secondly, I think the tabs should load not all together but the foreground one first and then in order so that the first readable tab is coming quickly.
Finally I am also annoyed by the fact that when there is only 2 tabs open and you close one the tabs disappear and the page goes up (which makes sense to use maximum space). But this move is confusing, because (just as in my first remark) the user attention is called and he is disturbed in is browsing task (every movement in the user interface is calling attention, no way to avoid that, every user will be disturbed), so the user switch his attention to what's happening with the tabs and the page, I think this should be avoid if a convenient solution can be found. (Like merging tabs with the title bar... don't know).
Anyway, this by far the best browser I used as of today, thanks a lot!

OK I’ll seem like plain Jane here, but Chimera worked and worked well. The old adage, “leave well enough alone” has never been more applicable. Tabs should be in the center, just like Chimera.

"I wish people would stop whining about tabs being upside down in safari. It's a simple concept, each tab represents a different window controller, that's why you see the URL and title change when you click each tab. The part where the pages are displayed is just a viewer, not a controller. It wouldn't make sense for you to click on a tab that's attached to the viewer, and the URL and window title change out of the blue."

When the Bookmarks Bars is hidden, what you say here is true. However, when the Bookmarks Bars is visible, this breaks down completely. The bottom line is that UPSIDE DOWN TABS underneath the BOOKMARKS BAR makes NO VISUAL SENSE. Period. Dot. End of sentence.

OAW

I'm mostly for tabs (modula the issues surrounding closing window/closing tabs) but for one major area: modality of dialogs/sheets.

Unless Apple is adding an API for tabbed browsing which includes attaching sheets to the content of the tab and not the window itself, print dialogs and the like cause the whole window to be frozen when it's really only one tab that needs to be locked down.

Accidently closing a tab or window should be (CMD-Z) undo-able

Tabbed browsing is a novelty on most platforms, but in the Mac world, it's a necessity. In Windows, KDE, Gnome, et al, the tabs are somewhat redundant, because you already have a taskbar that does the same thing. Maybe it's worse, because the tabs function as a sub-taskbar, and the open pages are invisible to the taskbar, which confuses novices who expect all open pages to be represented there. Additionally, I think that most people surf in full-screen mode, and using the taskbar and/or tabs are an easy way of managing windows.

On the Mac, however, there's no such thing as "full screen mode" for windows. If you drag a browser window open to full screen, additional windows that you open will either run off the screen as they stagger, or they will stagger and shrink. I love my Mac, but when it comes to window management, I feel the Mac OS paradign runs a DISTANT second to the taskbar-driven motif.

I find it odd that you would say that tabs are confusing to novices, because I think that just the opposite is true; I think that tabbed windows on the Mac HELP novices to manage windows because of the lack of a true taskbar. The Dock gives no immediate indication of open windows, just open apps. Ctrl-clicking on an app will give you a list of open windows, but several years after Apple put this into the Mac OS, I still don't see a lot of Mac users accessing contextual menus. There is the Window menu, true; but I think it is far easier if the tabs are right there where the user can see them and immediately see what pages are open, rather than hunting for a menu.

And then there's the issue of open windows in Mac OS X. Windows are no longer grouped according to application; the user can have multiple windows of various applications interspersed among each other; clicking on a Safari window will not bring all Safari windows to the front. And, frankly, having 20 open windows is just difficult for anyone to manage, seasoned pro and novice alike. The tabs keep open windows to a bare minimum, and I love that.

Tabbed browsing is just a nicety on other platforms, IMHO, but it's an absolute NECESSITY for Mac users, who are still lacking in adequate window management. Safari is not my browser of choice, for one reason; no tabbed browsing. (Camino isn't either, but that's because the whole "centered tabs" thing is a little confusing, and I don't like it when the UI makes me think before I act.)

I'd really like to make the jump to Safari, but the lack of tabs are the one thing that's holding me back.

One interface consideration with an appearing and vanishing tab bar (good for novices - hides complexity) is that the browser should either not change the window height (preferable), or should take into account the tab bar height when it saves the window size. Otherwise the browser might "grow" the saved window size every time it quits with tabs open.

I don't know what brought that on, Safari would take that into account, of couse. :)

QUOTE: Accidently closing a tab or window should be (CMD-Z) undo-able

agreed, absolutely.

QUOTE: Accidently closing a tab or window should be (CMD-Z) undo-able

agreed, absolutely.

Dan Smart wrote:

"Tabbed browsing is a novelty on most platforms, but in the Mac world, it's a necessity."

For whom? Not for me.

"Additionally, I think that most people surf in full-screen mode,

I've never seen any survey (maybe I should create one), but if they do, that's their choice. They don't have to. I keep my browser window about 500px wide, just enough for 80 columns of monospaced text (Monaco or ProFont 9). If a page doesn't fit, it's not worth reading; I move on to a scalable site -- one which respects my preferences instead of arrogantly demanding me to be like somebody else. Just as the IETF rejects "solutions" which do not scale, I reject Web sites which do not scale. HTML was designed to be scalable, and any page author who subverts that simply does not "get" what the Web is about.

"and using the taskbar and/or tabs are an easy way of managing windows.
There is the Window menu, true; but I think it is far easier if the tabs are right there where the user can see them and immediately see what pages are open, rather than hunting for a menu."

The Window menu works just fine for me. Stays out of my way until I need it.

"And then there's the issue of open windows in Mac OS X. Windows are no longer grouped according to application; the user can have multiple windows of various applications interspersed among each other; clicking on a Safari window will not bring all Safari windows to the front."

That is not a problem for me. The only problem is switching back and forth between my OS X machine and my Mac OS machine due to the change.

"And, frankly, having 20 open windows is just difficult for anyone to manage, seasoned pro and novice alike."

Nonsense!!! I have over 25 open windows in Eudora right now, and the *only* problem is my own procrastination in dealing with them. :-)

"Tabbed browsing is just a nicety on other platforms, IMHO, but it's an absolute NECESSITY for Mac users, who are still lacking in adequate window management."

No, it's perfectly adequate for me, and I am a power user with a dozen apps running at once and a dozen windows in each app. The only enhancement I want is an option to never stagger windows.

Er, by "it's perfectly adequate for me" I meant the Window menu.

... From some of the comments above, it appears rather clearly that OS X needs some kind of taskbar-like "entity", listing also open windows besides applications (in addition to the Window menu, "above", and the pop-up menu in the app's icon, "below"): the first, obvious candidate to such a function is, of course, the Dock - as an addition to the existing one and/or (see user-definable customisability!) in an independent, second Dock (see possible multiple Docks).

Tabs - preferably as a system-wide option! - should fit nicely within such a structure, beginning from Safari and the loved/hated Finder: IMHO, tabs should be available in any app, whenever their use is appropriate (exactly as in the System Preferences panes, BTW).

Maybe our beloved "Shiny Fruit" could finally (OS X 10.3+?) come out with something that integrates - and positively goes beyond - the best available options - beginning from the Dock itself, the Windows taskbar (still a quite powerful and elegant solution, whatever opinion one might have about Microsoft!), KDE, GNOME, etc. etc...? :-)

On Mac OS 9, some (very few) apps have what are called "panes", subdivisions within windows that can each hold different content, i.e. different files in a text editor. These are useful on occasion, as a user may view these contents side-by-side and do tasks like comparing them. That is actually why they are presented together, in a single window (and not in separate windows as one would expect): The window in this case encompasses the entire task.

This has never really caught on, however. People hardly ever use it.

Now, it might be argued that in web browsing, tabbed windows serve two purposes really:
(1) short-term, window-scope URL memory
(2) immediate switching between web pages

Since it is impossible, by design, to view "tabbed pages" simultaneously, side-by-side as it were, these two are really the only functions that tabs provide.

It might be argued that function (1) were better served by extending an existing metaphor, and (2) by smart caching. In this way, it may be possible to keep UI extension to an absolute minimum, without any impact on well-established elements like the Close-Window menu entry and key equivalent.

As an example, imagine a window with a "history" bar under the bookmark bar, distiguished with a "history" icon instead of the "book" icon and similar in appearance otherwise. Modifier-clicking a link would display this bar, if not already displayed, and add the clicked link at the right. Invisibly, the clicked link might also be loaded at this time. Unlike the bookmark bar, each window would have its own private content in the history bar.

Clicking the history icon or a history bar item would display the window history or the "history link", just as with bookmarks. Removing a "history link" from the bar would also be handled just like removing a bookmark (and also without impacting the displayed page).

(Incidentally, this would also solve the old and obvious problem of the perversion of the menu bar metaphor with an incredibly overloaded "History" menu. This analysis being just my opinion, of course.)

This being merely an example, I have not really thought it through, nor resolved all problems that might crop up.

However, it seems to me that a solution like this could be made to work at least as well as "tabbed browsing" without introducing any of the UI problems you mention in your paper.