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July 18, 2005

DOM Scripting Task Force

The DOM Scripting Task Force is a task force, composed of puppets, saving the world from terrorists.

And like the movie, I laughed when I saw their page. First they call "DHTML" outdated and replace it with sexy names like AJAX (yawn) and DOM Scripting (what, no acronym?). Their manifesto is all over the place. One section talks about not fearing to learn JavaScript, though isn't their intended audience JavaScript developers?. They then blame the developers for not making accessible web applications and discuss how one could write such "unobtrusive" DOM Scripting.

They never define accessibility. Keyboard navigation? Screenreader support? For keyboard navigation, yes, you can design your application to work better, but that usually involves events, which pretty much each browser implements differently. And that is a weakness of the whole site, they naivly assume DOM Scripting is cross browser because it is based on a W3C standard. Mozilla folks know better :) No browser implements events the same way...

For screenreaders, well, that is not JavaScript's fault. The problem is, how the heck should a screenreader figure that a html:div is really a menu? The way Mozilla is going (thanks to Aaron Leventhal's work at IBM) is a XHTML role model. I've seen this running and it is quite cool. And a W3C standard in the working!

The "Front end and back end" rant sounds like someone had a few bad experiences and wanted to vent. Interestingly enough, in that section, they say that for "unobtrusive scripting"'s sake, JavaScript should only be used to present data, and not "search for, collate, and serve data and business logic". Yet that is exactly what DHTML is about, expecially their beloved AJAX (whose last 2 latters stand for getting stuff without reloading the page).

As someone who deals with "how do I get this working in Mozilla" on quite complex web applications, I believe the real way is to educate people by providing good developer resources so that developers go their rather than the quite good MSDN and end up using IE syntax. Is the WASP going to do this? Or just link to samples others have written and pat themselves on their backs and buzz around?

So I remain confused about their intent. Is it really just to write JavaScript that works in all browsers? Just like the movie, they try to cover both sides, without really making a strong statement.

Posted by doron at July 18, 2005 5:45 PM

Comments

You really should have provides pics of the puppets... by the end that was the entirety of my interest the DOM Scripting Task Force... along with a slight curiosity whether they are able to perform these awesome feats before bedtime.

Posted by: Robert Strong at July 18, 2005 6:59 PM

Here are the most recent docs on accessible DHTML; people should use this at least until I can get the redirect to work:
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/

Posted by: Aaron Leventhal at July 18, 2005 8:19 PM

Which movie?

Posted by: Martijn at July 19, 2005 3:19 AM

I think you are taking it a little hard on them considering they just started the task force. Maybe volunteering to add input would be more helpful.

Movie Reference is I think to Team America: World Police. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/

Posted by: Will Rickards at July 19, 2005 9:49 AM

Just curious. Why does IBM not impelment a copy of Home Page Reader on Firefox?

Posted by: Alex at July 19, 2005 1:04 PM

--- start quote ---
Is the WASP going to do this? Or just link to samples others have written and pat themselves on their backs and buzz around?
--- end quote ---

The WaSP isn't initiating such a project themselves, as I am doing something quite exactly like that, but there are many WaSP members that will be contributing to this project.

Beyond that, the Task Force is to promote the use of modern Javascript rather than the old, outdated and horrible Javascript that we still see on most sites. They're not here to be the ultimate answer to everything JS, they're doing exactly what the WaSP is all about: promotion, and liaising between the W3C (or, their recommendations) and software developers. Why? Because the W3C can't be arsed to do so, and someone has to do it.

Also, how in hell can I add some formatting, here? *mutter*

Posted by: Faruk Ateş at July 22, 2005 6:13 AM

"The use of modern Javascript rather than the old, outdated and horrible Javascript"

JS hasn't really changed much in the bast few years. I assume you mean DOM usage in JavaScript, which is a different issue. That kind of confusion is what annoys me.

Posted by: doron [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2005 6:56 AM

JavaScript itself as a scripting language hasn't changed much in the past few years, but the way it's implemented definitely has.

With "Modern JS" I'm referring to unobtrusive, clean, well thought-out Javascript. DOM scripting is a large part of it, but it's still more than that.

Posted by: Faruk Ateş at July 22, 2005 8:46 AM

I think you are right Doron. Our manifesto was put together in a shocking hurry and was not subject to any stringent peer review.

The aims of the DOM Scripting Task Force are fairly simple, to advocate use of W3C standards in the scripting arena. There are concerns about accessibility in connection with scriting and we would like to address those issues too.

You hit the nail on the head with the Team America reference. The tone of the manifesto needs to be changed. Give it a chance, some of the more youthful members of the group need to be reigned in a little but that is all.

Regards,
Puppet #1

Posted by: Dean Edwards at July 22, 2005 11:45 AM

Oh, and with "the way it's implemented" I mean the way end-users write it for their websites, *NOT* the way browsers implement Javascript.

Posted by: Faruk Ateş at July 24, 2005 4:11 AM

Using the name DOM Scripting might have something to do with advertising the book of the same name by the head of the "task force".

Posted by: Fred Bloggs at July 24, 2005 11:27 AM