July 28, 2009

microsoft's settlement proposal

(Note: This is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect Mozilla's position or any formal statement from Mozilla. I expect that Mozilla will make some kind of public comment on this topic, but this is definitely not that.)

On Friday Microsoft released a statement and a number of documents that they hope will lead to a settlement with the European Commission with regards to the ongoing legal case against Microsoft for violating EU anti-competition statutes.

The first collection of documents, on "Browser Choice", directly addresses the EC case and, if accepted by the EC, would presumably become the legally binding settlement with the EC.

The second document group called "Interoperability" is scoped beyond just the EC and the EU and is not intended, as far as I can tell, to be a part of any binding settlement with the EC.

When Mozilla became a participant in all of this, Mitchell Baker started a series of blog posts to develop a set of principles that Mozilla believed should be addressed by any remedies in the case. The principle discussions were not about specific remedies themselves, rather they were about the goals that we though any remedies should meet.

As I read through the Microsoft settlement proposal, it looks to me like Microsoft has at least made a nod to each of Mozilla's principles and I find that encouraging.

But I suspect there's two ways to read this. The casual reading, as if it was a press release or a blog post, may suggest that Microsoft has responded favorably to most of the concerns that most people voicing concerns (including Mozilla) laid out. From that reading, things probably look pretty good.

There's potentially another way to read this, though, as an excruciatingly precise legal document. Reading it in that light might elicit a different reaction -- it did for me and I'm not even a lawyer (though I presume to be able to think like one.)

Assume for a minute that Microsoft's exact language here was codified as the legal settlement document with the EC. What might lawyers on either side be able to assert or defend based on the exact language in the document. How do things look in that light?

I've tried to convey some of both readings in my reactions and I encourage those of you with the interest to try reading it both ways as well and to share your thoughts here in comments.

I structured this blog post by trying to connect each of the principles that Mitchell described with the part of Microsoft's settlement proposal that most closely aligns with that principle and I'm interested 1) whether or not you think there's really alignment between the two, and 2) whether the remedies Microsoft is proposing would, in your view, effectively satisfy each Mozilla principle.

From Mitchell's EC Principles: Synthesis blog post:

Of the various principles I proposed, the ones that get the strongest positive response are those that protect the choices people have already made or are trying to make. These are outlined in principles 1: Respecting Previous Choice and 2: Windows Must Not Provide a Technical Advantage to IE.

Let's take the first one first. Windows cannot subvert a person's choice of an alternative browser. Here's how Mitchell described the principle:

Once a person has chosen Firefox or Opera or another browser this choice should be respected. Neither Windows nor IE should use the presence of IE to encourage or promote a return to IE, or to automatically open a different web browser than that which the user has selected. Otherwise, the monopoly presence of Windows on 90+% of the world's personal computers means that people are forced to choose alternative products over and over again.

Mitchell went on to describe some specific area of concern:

  • Use of IE for operating system purposes cannot bleed into web browsing
  • IE must close after OS purposes complete
  • IE may not ask to become the default browser or make itself the default browser except in specified legitimate circumstances, like perhaps when a person downloads IE separately from Windows or from a Windows update

It will be useful to identify the ways in which Microsoft products -- including Office, as suggesting in a previous comment -- lead people to IE, or open IE as the browser even when another browser has been selected as the default. Feel free to add them here or let me know through other channels.

And here's the relevant text from Microsoft's settlement proposal:

1. (1) Microsoft will make available a mechanism in Windows Client PC Operating Systems within the European Economic Area (EEA) that enables OEMs and end users to turn Internet Explorer off and on.
1. (3) Within Microsoft's PC Productivity Applications [Microsoft Office 2007] distributed in the EEA, Microsoft shall not include any icons, links or short-cuts or provide any other means to start a download or installation of a Microsoft web browser. Microsoft shall not use Windows Update to offer any new version of a Microsoft web browser to users within the EEA unless Internet Explorer is turned on on the user's computer.... Windows Client PC Operating Systems shall enable end users to choose their preferred default web browser. Windows Client PC Operating Systems, including Windows Update, and Internet Explorer, shall not override the user's choice of default web browser.

So how does that sound to you? Will that put an end to Microsoft's ability to use Windows to undo or otherwise subvert user's choice of browser?

Here's what I see in this part of the Microsoft proposal:

Microsoft will provide users a switch to turn IE off at which point it disappears from the system and won't be turned back on by Office 2007 or Windows Update. That sounds good, but I don't think it will have much practical impact. For this to be meaningful, I think Microsoft needs to to do one of two things. One, they could make the IE off switch a public API so that it can be offered as a checkbox in browser installers ("Would you like Opera to replace Internet Explorer?") where it might actually get used some. Or, two, they could change the language to say they will not use Windows Update to ask users to make IE the default browser if the user has already made another browser the default. Microsoft has a long history of using Windows Update to undo user choice and they're basically saying here that they'll continue those practices unless IE is fully turned off. So, in my view, it needs to be really easy to turn off, or they need to extend the language to cover the case where IE's on but not the default browser.

Microsoft agrees to not advertise IE, either through links, icons, or shortcuts, from within Office 2007. That's a good start but I think it doesn't go far enough. What about Microsoft programs other than Office 2007 (I read that Office 2010 is just around the corner, for example,) and what about non-Microsoft programs that call IE directly when they really should be calling the default browser? If Microsoft wants this provision of their settlement proposal to matter, I think they need to cover more than just Office 2007.

The second principle that Mitchell articulated was Windows can't provide a technical advantage to IE.

Windows has provided technical advantages to IE through techniques such as those listed below. This list is not meant to be conclusive. It is meant to illustrate the range of ways in which Windows can and has made it difficult for other browsers to provide a competitive experience on Windows.
  • Making information available to IE before or differently than that information is available to others.
  • Making it difficult for other browsers to access browsing information stored in Windows, thus making migration and syncing painful for users and difficult for other browser makers to implement well. This includes information such as formats and metadata related to IE favorites, website passwords, and website cookies.
  • IE use of undocumented Windows APIs.
  • Providing APIs to IE available to Windows developers as part of the "Windows" API. As a result applications developed by third party developers can send URLs directly to IE rather than to the browser the user has selected as his or her choice.
  • Requiring the use of IE to use the Windows update service. (Microsoft appears to have phased out this practice, or to have provided alternatives. I include it as an illustration of the ways Microsoft has, and could again, use Windows to damage competition in the browser space.)

The ubiquity of Windows brings this artificial competitive advantage for IE to almost every single person using a personal operating system. Redressing this setting will help refocus competition on the merits of the browser itself.

And here's what Microsoft is offering the EC:

1. (1) Microsoft will ensure that if Internet Explorer is turned off, then (i) it can only be turned on through user action specifically aimed at turning on Internet Explorer; (ii) the user interface cannot be called upon by applications; and (iii) no icons, links or shortcuts or any other means will appear within Windows to start a download or installation of Internet Explorer
2. (14) Microsoft will ensure that all the Windows APIs on which Internet Explorer relies are disclosed in a complete, accurate and timely manner, so that non-Microsoft web browser suppliers would not be at a competitive disadvantage compared to Microsoft when designing a web browser for Windows. For purposes of this paragraph 14, Internet Explorer consists of the code that is distributed separately from Windows and trademarked or marketed as Internet Explorer.
3. (17) For Windows Vista and successors, Microsoft shall ensure that access and the full functioning of the Windows Update online service (currently available at www.update.microsoft.com) is not dependent on the use of the Internet Explorer user interface.

What do you think? Does that go far enough to mitigating the IE and Windows integration technical advantages?

I personally think this, on the face of it, represents reasonable steps in the right direction, but I'm bothered again by the fact that IE simply won't be turned off all that often so applications will continue to launch IE at which point IE will attempt to undo the user's default browser choice.

The API commitment sounds strong to me, so long as one assumes that the APIs are scoped in such a way that they were actually usable by browsers from other vendors. I'm also a bit concerned about their definition of "Timely Manner" which is "as soon as Microsoft has developed a sufficiently stable 'beta' testing version of Windows (including Service Packs and Updates) and has made this implementation available to third parties for testing purposes for the first time." There are two issues I'm concerned about here. First, is the first beta really early enough for third parties to take advantage or to alert Microsoft about concerns with the API that could negatively impact browsers from other vendors. The second issue is that I do not see a provision for the situation where there's an API that's new to a new Windows release but isn't yet utilized by Internet Explorer. If the requirement is to disclose only APIs that IE is using at the time of the Windows beta, what happens if the API isn't used at the time of the Windows release but IE later takes advantage of that API?

Windows Update is already pretty well separated from Internet Explorer with the stand-alone Automatic Updates program, but if I'm reading this right, Microsoft is saying that the online version will also not depend on IE. I'm a little unclear though, because they're not saying it won't require the IE rendering engine, just that it won't require the IE user interface. A more explicit "Windows Update online service at www.update.microsoft.com will work in Firefox, Safari, Chrome, and Opera" would have made me feel a lot better here.

The third Mozilla principle was Windows must enable people to choose other browsers

Mitchell put it like this:

How much distribution advantage can Windows provide to IE? If one answers "as much as Microsoft wants with no limits" then this principle wouldn't be implemented. If one answers "Windows can't provide any distribution advantage to IE" then one would likely end up supporting a remedy that requires Windows to install a browser separately, based on a consumer's decisions. If one answers "some" then one looks to a type of "must carry" remedy; a remedy that has been reported as of interest to the EC.

In her synthesis post, Mitchell added,

The more direct, product based Principle 3, Windows must enable people to choose other browsers, generated some very positive feedback and also some concerns. The positive response comes from the idea that one can't address the problem without addressing the product. The concerns seem based in (a) complexity of user experience concerns; (b) concern over unintended consequences.

Here's what Microsoft is offering the EC for browser choice remedies.

2. (7) Microsoft will distribute a Ballot Screen software update to users within the EEA of Windows XP, Windows Vista and Windows Client PC Operating Systems, by means of Windows Update
2. (8) The Ballot Screen will give those users who have set Internet Explorer as their default web browser an opportunity to choose whether and which competing web browser(s) to install in addition to the one(s) they already have
2. (11) The Ballot Screen will be populated with the most widely-used web browsers that run on Windows with a usage share of equal to or more than 0.5% in the EEA as measured semi-annually by a source commonly agreed between Microsoft and the European Commission
2. (12) The Ballot Screen will in a horizontal line and in an unbiased way display icons of and basic identifying information on the web browsers
2. (9) ...Microsoft may offer tools to volume license users that prevent the Ballot Screen update from being installed on all computers covered by the licence
2. (10) Nothing in the design and implementation of the Ballot Screen and the presentation of competing web browsers will express a bias for a Microsoft web browser or any other web browser or discourage the user from downloading and installing additional web browsers via the Ballot Screen and making a web browser competing with a Microsoft web browser the default.

This remedy had supporters and detractors both inside and outside of the Mozilla community. Whether you came down for or against, since Microsoft has put this on the table as one of their big offers to the EC and since it's getting the lion's share of press coverage, I'm interested in what you think Microsoft's offer would actually accomplish and whether or not it would address the principle involved, Windows must enable people to choose other browsers.

I'm of mixed feelings on this one. I think that a lot will depend on the actual implementation of the ballot. In the current incarnation, I'd be surprised if any major changes resulted.

First, by putting IE in the left-most spot, they're directly contradicting paragraph (10). That layout makes IE the "default" choice because it places it first in a horizontal list. For real unbiased ballot, the primary offerings should be in randomized order, or some other order that doesn't recreate the priorities that MS obtained unlawfully.

If the ballot is to go beyond just offering a real choice and the goal is to actually effect real change, IE should be placed last on the list so that users arrive at IE after evaluating the descriptions of the other browsers first.

IE has essentially twice the representation on this ballot screen as the other browsers, maybe more. Since it already is the default browser for Windows, "no user action" is the same as choosing IE. That means there are two ways to achieve IE as the default, either by selecting it, or by ignoring the question. That's a very large advantage for IE.

(Most common user behavior when confronted by roadblocks is to take an action they believe will most effectively remove the roadblock. We've learned this lesson well in dealing with browser security warnings and other dialogs that interrupt the user's flow. Users are going to instinctively dismiss the entire window or pick the default or most prominent choice.)

But even with all those items addressed, there's still the very large problem with this implementation. If we assume that the user choice to pick a different browser in this ballot is a clear signal of the user's intention to actually get and at least try out that alternative browser, then we have to have some better mechanism for fulfilling that intention. Clicking a download link does not guarantee that the user will achieve the goal of getting and trying a new browser. Far from it. There are quite a few steps between clicking the link and a new browser window in arriving in front of the user. At Mozilla we're very experienced with this and we probably have the most effective system in place for helping a user through the process of clicking a download link and having a first run experience with the a new browser, but we still see significant drop off at every stage of that process. For example, if you count the number of people that click the "download Firefox" button at our Website, and then you count the number of people that actually completed the download, located the downloaded file, launched the installer, and completed the installer, you'll find that only about 57% of the people make it through that process and ever even get a first look at Firefox running. And we're really really good at this. There's even further fall-off when you look at people who can still locate and use Firefox a month later resulting in a conversion of only about 35%. So, if you want to fulfill the user's intention, it's simply not enough to put a download link on the page. The effort a user must understand and put forward to achieve a browser change is significantly larger then the effort required to maintain the status quo and that just isn't a recipe for meaningful choice or real change.

Finally, even if a user does manage to acquire a new browser, IE still has the advantage of starting out with the default status and the most prominent placement on the Windows Desktop and the Start menu. For ever after, even something as simple as an accidental or habitual click on the "blue e" will result in another easy opportunity for Microsoft to undo the user's choice.

It's my view that to make the ballot meaningful, Microsoft would have to address all of these issues, and possibly a few more I haven't thought of.

The fourth principle, Microsoft's financial and other incentives to distributors must be browser-neutral, didn't generate a lot of discussion in the Mozilla community. I think this is because the OEM channel is opaque to most people, or even worse, works almost precisely opposite from how one might guess.

Here's Mitchell again:

(This [OEM] distribution channel is *so* valuable that Microsoft's early efforts to promote IE in the 1990's included threatening the OEMs with the loss of their ability to ship Windows (and thus the end of their business) if the OEMs didn't ship IE exclusively. This practice stopped after the US judicial system determined a set of these sorts of practices to be illegal.)

Historically, software vendors generated revenue on upgrades and the licensing of subsequent and additional products. Today the models are diverse and complex, and may also include revenue-sharing between OEMs and software or service providers. For example, if you use a desktop search functionality, chances are high that the company you bought the machine from is getting a piece of revenue from the search provider.

This principle does not challenge these general business models. Like the other remedies, it is tied to the monopoly status of Windows, which requires all PC OEMs to work with Microsoft. In addition these programs cannot be matched by others because the Windows monopoly gives Microsoft a raft of unique tools. This principle prohibits the use of those tools to promote IE in ways that are unavailable to other browser manufacturers. It asserts that Windows monopoly status cannot be tied to financial incentives that further damage browser competition.

Microsoft's settlement proposal says:

1. (4) Microsoft shall not retaliate against any OEM for developing, using, distributing, promoting or supporting software that competes with Microsoft web browsers, in particular by altering Microsoft's commercial relations with that OEM, or by withholding Consideration.
1. (5) Microsoft shall not enter into any agreement with an OEM that conditions the grant of any Consideration on the OEM's refraining from developing, using, distributing, promoting or supporting any software that competes with Microsoft web browsers.
1. (6) Microsoft shall not terminate a direct OEM license for Windows Client PC Operating Systems without having first given the OEM written notice of the reasons for the proposed termination and not less than thirty days' opportunity to cure.

So what do you think? Is this sufficient to calm fears that Microsoft would strong-arm PC makers into distributing IE or making it the default browser rather than some alternative?

This sounds to me a lot like what Microsoft was already forced to agree to in the U.S. after they were convicted of anti-competitive practices for exactly this kind of behavior at the turn of the century. If this wasn't already the status quo, it certainly would be a good thing to make it so.

Mozilla's fifth principle was Microsoft must educate people about other browsers.

Mitchell introduced this principle saying

One of the results of the Windows / IE integration is that millions of people believe that the "blue e" icon IS the Internet. They are unaware of of Microsoft's control over their online lives through this blue "e" or that they have additional choices. This principle asserts that Microsoft should participate in correcting the misconception that it has created. The monopoly of Windows and Microsoft in people's computer experience means there is no other entity that can substitute for Microsoft here.

And here's what Microsoft is offering that aligns with this principle.

1. (1) Microsoft will maintain a web page on www.microsoft.com that explains how users can turn Internet Explorer on and off, and will maintain that page so that other browser vendors can link to it if they wish.
2. (8) The Ballot Screen will provide two links associated with each web browser. An "install" link will connect to a vendor-managed distribution server, which, upon the user's confirmation, can directly download the installation package of the selected web browser (and only a web browser, including software to update the web browser only) for local execution (the resulting situation will therefore equal a scenario in which the user himself had downloaded and executed the installation package without being aided by the Ballot Screen). An "information" link will connect to a vendor-managed web page from which the vendor can offer users more information about its browser and installation options. Users will be able to select one or more of the web browsers offered through the Ballot Screen. Microsoft shall ensure that in the Ballot Screen users will be informed in an unbiased way that they can turn Internet Explorer off.

This is obviously not a major education campaign, but I'm interested in whether or not you all think these documents will address the principle that Microsoft must educate people about other browsers.

In my view, this principle was always going to be difficult to put into practice outside of what could be accomplished in some implementation of principle 3, but Microsoft does have a pretty big footprint in publishing and education so there's no shortage of places Microsoft could create and deploy content that educated people about Web browser choice. I think, though, that the most effective education would be delivered through Windows itself with something like the proposed ballot. The information included in the ballot would need quite a bit of improvement over what Microsoft has proposed, at a minimum prefacing the choice of browsers with a clear description of what a Web browser is and how they can differ from vendor to vendor.

The sixth principle, Microsoft tools for developing content must not produce IE specific or Windows-specific results and the seventh "potential" principle "IE must comply with web standards" (Opera has suggested that Microsoft must support web standards they have promised to support) go un-adressed in Microsoft's remedy offer to the EC but are somewhat covered in an accompanying proposals that Microsoft calls a "Public Interoperability Undertaking" which as I noted in the intro to this post isn't legally binding.

Still, Microsoft is on record saying that it will support a set of Web standards and that it will do more to increase interoperability between its products and products from other vendors.

How do you think that will work out? Do you think Microsoft will follow through with this Public Undertaking? Will it have the impact that Opera and other advocates of using legal pressures to force standards compliance were hoping for?

I think that six was actually a pretty important principle and I would have liked to see Microsoft address this specifically in its settlement proposal. Microsoft's IE hegemony has been consistently bolstered and supported by the IE-specific or IE-advantaged Web content that is produced from other Microsoft products. When you save an Office document for the Web, for example, it has always favored the IE browser and disadvantaged competing browsers. When you produce a Web site or even a simple Web page using Microsoft's Web development tools, that site or page has always worked better in IE than in competing browsers. This has the very real impact of discouraging the use of competing browsers and persisting Microsoft's dominance in the space.

The idea of legally mandating standards never appealed to me. I think I understand what Opera and other supporters of this principle were trying to achieve, but I think there were always just too many pitfalls here. It's even more than just the question of which standards and what "support" actually means. If, for example, the EC mandated that Microsoft fully support CSS standards that were ratified by the W3C. Well, Microsoft is a member organization with standing on the CSS Working Group and they could simply derail useful CSS advances in order to avoid having to comply with the EC. No one wins there. In my view, the standards bodies are already problematic enough and I really wouldn't want to see them further perverted by member organizations seeking legal or political gain.

I'll just close by re-stating that I think Mozilla's involvement in this has been quite positive and I believe that Microsoft's settlement attempt addresses many of the concerns that Mitchell spelled out. Whether it addresses them well or effectively, I'm interested in hearing from you all. I'll reserve my judgements for a later post.

Posted by asa at 10:10 AM

 

reactions, thoughts, comments, etc.

I think it would be fair to randomize the order of the ballot selection screen, and allow users to INSTALL MULTIPLE BROWSERS!!! A web developer will tick all boxes, a tech-savvy student will pick Firefox and my Mum can stick with her IE.

It says a lot about the internet and modern society in general that this has become such a monster of an issue. Will Linux be forced to run IE too? Even though I'm a die-hard Firefox fan, who wears his Firefox t-shirts with pride... I have to say that this whole thing somehow seems incredibly unfair and unnatural.

Posted by: @F1LT3R | July 28, 2009 11:04 AM

@@F1LT3R, I don't foresee a time when Linux is a convicted monopolist, but if that does happen, I'd expect regulators to make sure that Linux wasn't able to use its monopoly in one market to distort competition in another market. If regulators had failed at that, and Linux was allowed an unfair advantage based on its monopoly, I'd hope that someone raised a hand and called for remedies.

As to fairness, maybe you can be more specific. Here's an example that's more specific. Do you think it would be fair if, hypothetically, Dell and Mozilla came to an agreement to include Firefox with new Dell PCs and Microsoft retaliated by terminating all Windows licensing to Dell, effectively putting Dell out of business?

Would Microsoft's behavior in that situation be considered fair? And note, this isn't really all that hypothetical. Microsoft engaged in just such behavior in the past and used those kinds of tactics to help displace Netscape. Microsoft has proposed in this settlement document that they would not engage in that kind of behavior in the future and I that seems both reasonable and fair to me. Does that leave you with a bad feeling?

- A

Posted by: Asa Dotzler | July 28, 2009 11:18 AM

Even better idea... the browser that is closest to the HTML5 specification gets bumped to the top of the list. That way there's a greater incentive to deliver on promises.

Posted by: @F1LT3R | July 28, 2009 11:24 AM

"Do you think it would be fair if, hypothetically, Dell and Mozilla came to an agreement to include Firefox with new Dell PCs and Microsoft retaliated by terminating all Windows licensing to Dell, effectively putting Dell out of business?" - A

Here's why I think that was a "straw-dummy" argument. Your hypothetical agreement would hurt Microsoft and Dell equally as Dell users largely want Windows and Microsoft want the OS OEM monopoly. Additionally, Mozilla don't make operating systems, so how could Dell force Microsoft out by offering Firefox? Unless you are talking about tampering with OEM software which is a legal issue of another kind. As it stands, some Dells come with Linux, and do not have IE installed... did they retaliate by offering IE for Linux? No, but perhaps that is more the state of IE development than Microsoft policy. :P

"Microsoft has proposed in this settlement document that they would not engage in that kind of behavior in the future and I that seems both reasonable and fair to me. Does that leave you with a bad feeling?" -A

No that does not leave me with a bad feeling. While it seems reasonable... it does not seem 'fair'. Browsers are not the only software out there, where is the fairness in competition for other kinds of free software? The whole issue was born in the labor of bubble revenue, and though it's nice that users may have the chance to select a richer web experience as a default(sort of default), it "seems" as if the issue should be dead in the age where every browser is free. But... it remains an issue of revenue, for the fight is really about advertising mechanisms, not standards; which in itself is... unfair.

"Microsoft engaged in just such behavior in the past and used those kinds of tactics to help displace Netscape." -A

Yes, and they created a monster, so to speak ;) So Microsoft played dirty and destroyed an electronic organism. Was any body hurt? Maybe people at Netscape found a new mode of employment and are doing just fine. I hope this to be the case. Either way, whacking Netscape with the 'deal stick' tore good source-code out of the friendly dinosaur like candy from a PiƱata; ultimately leading to great open products like Firefox.

Let's imagine Microsoft had played fair from the get-go, what would the UA landscape look like today? Would it be as far ahead? My guess is probably not as war tends to increase productivity. the inverse of which appears to be true of Microsoft, who seem to have considered the war ended with the release of IE6... and are still playing catch-up to this day.

Posted by: @F1LT3R | July 28, 2009 12:12 PM

@@F1LT3R, I guess we disagree then. You seem to be suggesting that Microsoft should be allowed to use its Windows monopoly to retaliate or otherwise extract results from OEMs in order to further its reach in a different market. I think they shouldn't be allowed to.

And it's not a straw man at all. Microsoft has been been found guilting of doing the very things it is saying in this proposal that it won't do. I'm asking is whether or not you think there are or there are not limits on how Microsoft is allowed use its Windows monopoly. You're saying, as far as I can tell, that there are no limits except those Microsoft would impose on itself. We're probably not going to come to any kind of agreement if that's the territory you want to occupy.

- A

Posted by: Asa Dotzler | July 28, 2009 2:34 PM

Yeah, there's a lot lacking from MS. With how many lawyers they employ, I'm sure MS is putting millions into making sure the EU hurts IE as little as possible.

Here's a huge problem: I assume the ballot is during the Windows setup (the first thing you see when you get a computer from an OEM like entering your name and timezone). If a user picks Fx, Windows must download Fx but how many computers are online during that time? Outside IT depts and the like, I'm gonna say

PS, @FILTER, if you don't believe Dell would tank if it couldn't run Windows, just look at what already happened with netbooks that didn't run Windows. The vast majority of buyers returned them saying, "Where's Windows" and exchanged it for some other netbook, regardless of brand, with Windows. I'd love to believe Dell could do well selling only Linux of BSD, but it's just not realistic.

Posted by: Ephilei | July 28, 2009 6:58 PM

Hey?! I lost my message. I was writing that MS says the ballot will "download" non-MS browser which gives IE a huge advantage. Most computers, when they're first taken out of the box, aren't online and so will have to choose IE just to finish the Windows setup. MS needs to cache other browsers or else not cache IE. IE will still be the user choice of least resistence as Asa talks about.

Posted by: Ephilei | July 28, 2009 7:05 PM

Hey?! I lost my message. Twice. I was writing that MS says the ballot will "download" non-MS browser which gives IE a huge advantage. Most computers, when they're first taken out of the box, aren't online and so will have to choose IE just to finish the Windows setup. MS needs to cache other browsers or else not cache IE. IE will still be the user choice of least resistence as Asa talks about.

Posted by: Ephilei | July 28, 2009 7:06 PM

The idea of forcing a company to "fully" (I am quoting you here) implement CSS seems to me completely crazy, and I do have my CSS WG co-chair hat on here, because the designers of CSS are only humans. We do mistakes in our specs and our test suites are also made by humans and they just _cannot_ cover all the possible interactions between all CSS properties and values. Passing a test suite is NOT an equivalent to an official stamp saying "this implementation fully supports the spec".
It's also a very dangerous weapon to use: I remind you that CSS spread because Microsoft implemented them in IE, that @font-face was in the past only implement in IE, that MacIE was a pure jewel in terms of CSS support and so on.

Now, on the global thing itself - this is a strictly personal opinion now - I am extremely circumspect. If MS includes links to all browsers, why aren't they forced to include links to all applications competing with pieces of software included in Windows? Alternative firewalls, alternative control panels, notepad alternatives and so on. It's a pandora box and I don't like open pandora boxes...

Posted by: Daniel Glazman | July 28, 2009 10:47 PM

@Daniel Glazman: Microsoft isn't forced to include links to more competing applications because this comparison doesn't fit. It's not about "Oh, MS has a monopoly on the OS market and that's bad". Monopolies aren't good, but they're not illegal. The problem is, if you use your monopoly in one market segment to achieve the same in another market segment. And that's what MS did with IE. Not with Notepad, not with the Control Panel, but with IE. Remember, Netscape was *the* browser even before a decent (and therefore competitive) version of IE was released. Do you think IE could have gained 95% market share that fast despite being the worse product (well, at least in the beginning) and despite the competition having itself about 90% market share? And MS was found guilty of abusing their monopoly, not just in Europe.

So, it's not about having a monopoly, but about abusing it to achieve the same in other market segments.

As to MS' statement: The ballot screen is a nice try, but browsers really should be randomized, and IE shouldn't be there in my opinion. Because it's not really about choosing a browser. If you don't choose anything, IE will be your browser. It's about having the option to choose a different browser. And therefore, I think, IE shouldn't be there. So there would be only one possibility to choose IE as the default browser.

Posted by: wupperbayer | July 29, 2009 2:03 AM

"@F1LT3R, I guess we disagree then. You seem to be suggesting that Microsoft should be allowed to use its Windows monopoly to retaliate or otherwise extract results from OEMs in order to further its reach in a different market. I think they shouldn't be allowed to." - A

Yeah I definitely think we disagree to some extent. And I know how out of place it probably sounds to say it (especially as a die-hard Firefox fan), but I think the whole fiasco is ridiculous when it comes to the perspective of the end user. It only makes sense that this whole ordeal is going on when you consider it in the context advertising revenue. I think the reason people can afford to fight over "free" software... is revenue streams.


@A - In all fairness, seeing as we are on that topic, I reconsidered my position regarding OEM, it is not inconceivable that Firefox could be included in a pre-install of Windows. And yes I would consider it unfair if Microsoft then terminated the agreement. I think "THAT IS" an extent to which Microsoft could and should be limited. However, it still does not seem fair that iTunes can force out the PalmPre or limit the iPhone to iTunes as a media player.

So I have a question for you sir: Would it be fair for Windows to ONLY & EXPLICITLY allow for the use of IE, if Microsoft we also the hardware vendors???

@Ephilie - I actually said... quote --> "Your hypothetical agreement would hurt Microsoft and Dell EQUALLY as Dell USERS LARGELY WANT WINDOWS"

Posted by: @F1LT3R | July 29, 2009 4:40 PM

@@F1LT3R,

It's nice that we could find some agreement that it would be wrong for Microsoft to use its Windows monopoly (and the fact that not having access to Windows would drive an OEM out of business) to force other browsers off of new computers distributed by OEMs.

So my follow up question is this. What do you do to fix things when that happens?

Is it sufficient to say "yeah, that's probably unfair" and then do nothing more? Is it sufficient to say "stop doing that" and leave it at that? Is that all that that can be done?

Because that's basically what happened in the U.S. at the turn of the century. Microsoft was found guilty of using Windows to threaten OEMs that shipped browsers other than IE. Microsoft did that for long enough to take over 98% or so of the web browser market. They were found guilty and told to stop doing it. But the damage was already done. Microsoft had ~98% of the market and so Web pages were all written to work in IE and not in other browsers and that was that. The U.S. Justice Department told Microsoft it was unfair and that they should stop. That's all that was really done.

Europe looked at the situation and said "it's not enough to say 'yeah, that was probably unfair' and 'Microsoft should stop.'" They've decided to take the next step and try to undo some of that damage -- to try to restore some of the competition that Microsoft had illegally and unfairly destroyed.

Here's another way of looking at it. If you agree that it would be unfair (and even illegal) for me to go into a store and threaten to kill the owners unless they gave me all their money and to repeat that for years and years until I had millions of dollars and had bankrupted several large stores and cost other stores most of their business, would it be sufficient when you caught me to say "Asa, that's unfair to those stores. You should stop."

I don't think that would be sufficient. I think you'd want to take the money away from me and return it to the stores and you'd probably want to go even further and lock me up in a prison somewhere.

Microsoft behaved unfairly (and illegally) and so the question is how do you right that wrong. Is it sufficient to say "hey, Microsoft, that's unfair. You should stop"? Or, should they be forced to give up some or all of their ill-gotten gains? If they have to give up some or all of their ill-gotten gains, then how do you accomplish that? That's what the EC was trying to figure out when Microsoft made its offer and that's what we're trying to think through when we read Microsoft's offer.

Oh, and I agree with you that Apple shouldn't be allowed to force out the Palm Pre or limit the iPhone to iTunes as its only media player. But that's (for the time being) a moral issue and not a legal one. The difference between the Apple situation and the Microsoft situation is that Apple has not been legally described as having a monopoly in music players or online music stores. So, if you're Palm, and Apple blocks your access to iTunes music collections and the iTunes store, you can go to one of several other viable music management programs and music catalogs online and use any of those. Apple isn't the only game in town for you if you're Palm. You could connect to the Windows Media Player or Rhapsody Jukebox, or the Napster player or you could add your own desktop player and you could connect to the Amazon music store online or to the Rhapsody online catalog or the Zune Marketplace or Wal-Mart Music Downloads or BuyMusic.com or you could set up your own store. There are a lot of choices out there that you could adopt and not having iTunes access or iTunes Store access would not necessarily drive you out of business. You could probably still have a good product that lots of people would buy and use if it connected to Windows Media Player and the Zune store. Maybe not quite as good as iTunes and the iTunes store, but not so bad that it would put you out of business.

That's not the case with PC OEMs. If Dell could not ship Windows, it would go out of business. If HP could not ship Windows, it would go out of business. If Sony could not ship Windows, it would go out of business. Hell, if any of them even had to pay double or triple their current prices for Windows, they would go out of business. There is no viable alternative to Windows that would sustain those businesses. Their very existence depends on extremely affordable wholesale licenses to Windows. That gives Microsoft a very big and very effective threat and it's that very big and very effective threat that is illegal under the competition laws of several countries.

Now, I'm personally very concerned that the iTunes Store is getting closer and closer to a monopoly -- that it controls enough of the music marketplace that they could use that to force competitors in other markets, like music players or cell phones, out of business or to have an unfair advantage competing in new markets. But, they haven't yet been legally determined to have a monopoly or to have abused that monopoly. If that happens, I'll be hoping that the governments that find them guilty do more than say "that's bad. you should stop." I'll hope they do something to actually force them to stop and then to undo some of the damage.

Whether or not Microsoft controlled the hardware would not be meaningful to this question. It's sufficient that they have a monopoly in the OS. If they also had a monopoly in the hardware, that would make it even more egregious but it's enough that they have an OS monopoly.

- A

Posted by: Asa Dotzler | July 29, 2009 6:15 PM

"they could simply derail useful CSS advances"

They are already doing that. So what's the difference?

Posted by: wut | July 31, 2009 2:35 PM

It certainly is an interesting time in history. I mentioned fairness re: the iPhone in a previous comment, since then... the FCC have opened an investigation in Apple monopolizing Google voice out of the market.

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/07/31/fcc-opens-investigation-into-apples-rejection-of-google-voice-apps/

Posted by: Al | August 2, 2009 8:36 AM

"Windows Update is already pretty well separated from Internet Explorer with the stand-alone Automatic Updates program, but if I'm reading this right, Microsoft is saying that the online version will also not depend on IE."

What MS is referring to is that Windows Update is a native application in currently sold versions of Windows (i.e. Vista, Server 2008 and soon 7).

Posted by: Siddharth Agarwal | August 2, 2009 11:04 PM

Sid, I think that's not quite right. They explicitly call out the Update web address in the document.

Posted by: Asa Dotzler | August 3, 2009 11:26 AM

Asa, I think you completely missed the "fairness" question by F1LT3R, which I'm quite interested in, so I'll ask again :

"As to fairness, maybe you can be more specific. Here's an example that's more specific. Do you think it would be fair if, hypothetically, Dell and Mozilla came to an agreement to include Firefox with new Dell PCs and Microsoft retaliated by terminating all Windows licensing to Dell, effectively putting Dell out of business?" - A

I do think you are playing a strawman"straw-dummy" argument here, since from what I understand, the "fairness" that F1LT3R talked about is clearly about the fairness of the ballot screen, by his own words :

"I think it would be fair to randomize the order of the ballot selection screen, and allow users to INSTALL MULTIPLE BROWSERS!!! A web developer will tick all boxes, a tech-savvy student will pick Firefox and my Mum can stick with her IE."

he didn't talk about Linux becoming a monopoly nor Microsoft/OEM deals, so I think you completely missed the point there. The question is, how the different browsers should be ordered and chosen, so that it's actually fair to all the browsers listed? It seems MS chooses to list IE first, which does put IE in an advantage, again, as when you are given a list of items that you don't know much about, you are more likely just to choose first option.

And the ballot screen should allow the installation of multiple browsers, and setting one as the default.

Randomizing the order of the browsers listed does seem fair to the browser vendors, but it doesn't look fair to the end-users, as some users will be more likely to choose IE, some will be more likely to choose Firefox, and some will be more likely to choose Opera, etc. So for an individual user, the choice is again subverted to be more likely to use a certain browser by the ballot screen.

That's the question you have failed to comment on so far, so what do you think will be the best FAIR implementation of the ballot screen?

Posted by: kaixin001 | August 3, 2009 6:41 PM

"Asa, I think you completely missed the "fairness" question by F1LT3R, which I'm quite interested in, so I'll ask again"

Perhaps I misunderstood the question. I was obviously responding more to his second paragraph than the first.

You are concerned about the order in the ballot. I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference. The current order, as proposed by Microsoft is by browser reach. The browsers with the most share are at the beginning of the list and the browsers with the least share are at the end. I think this is a fine ordering, except that I would prefer IE wasn't on the list at all. IE is already installed, already the default, and no action is required to preserve that.

The problem I see with "random" is that if you put a ballot in front of someone and the first items are completely unrecognized, fewer people will engage at all. Not engaging is the same as choosing IE in the current design. Firefox has significantly more reach and brand awareness than any of the other not-IE browsers for European customers. I think it's much better to start with the most recognized choices if the goal is to get engagement with the ballot and market/usage share is a fine approximation for brand awareness in this case.

As for allowing installation of multiple browsers, I don't see anything in the ballot preventing that. The title of the ballot might dissuade people from trying more than one, but users can get back at the ballot from a desktop shortcut any time to try a second browser if they found the first trial interesting.

All that being said, I think there's plenty wrong with the ballot other than the order. When most users don't even know what a browser is, asking them to choose one based on a logo and a short feature description isn't going to lead to real and meaningful user choice.

I think that one has to assume that most people are going to uncritically take what ever action they think will get the ballot out of their way the fastest. For most users that will probably be closing the window or clicking the IE logo which they recognize as the path to the Internet they've had on their desktop for years.

This is why I think that much more important than the order of the browsers in the ballot is to actually engage people with the ballot and that means things like adding a sentence at the top of the ballot introducing what a browser is and why someone might want to make an informed choice. It means having Firefox, the most recognized alternative to IE, as visible as possible (yes, I know people will think that suggestion is in bad faith, and there's nothing I can do about that except to say that I care deeply about browser choice and I really do believe Firefox has done more to help the cause of alternative browsers than they have for each other or themselves.) And it means things like allowing the browser vendors to provide the images and text (within size constraints, of course.)

- A

Posted by: Asa Dotzler | August 3, 2009 7:32 PM

Probably too late, but:

"Sid, I think that's not quite right. They explicitly call out the Update web address in the document."

What isn't quite right? Windows Update _is_ a native application that interfaces with the online service, and if you try to access it via the website, you'll be told to start the native application instead.

Posted by: Siddharth Agarwal | October 15, 2009 6:08 AM










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