Unbelievable.. my install procedure wasnt as detailed at Ed's - simply deselected Bonjour and Safari, and continued to install iTunes. Noticed today that Bonjour was already installed. Attempted to uninstall Bonjour. Now starting iTunes gives a warning!
Bonjour is a required dependency of all network-related features of iTunes (eg. syncing with AppleTV). Firefox 3.1 also installed Ogg support without asking me. So what?
Ogg support isn't going to require a bunch of always-resident background tasks that you don't necessarily need (I'm sure people could care less about iTunes networking functions for the most part), it's just codecs. That's quite a different story from something that actively looks for hardware to connect to.
Ogg support is there and I don't need it. I don't need Animated GIF support either. I already have a GUI toolkit, I don't need XUL. I already have OpenSSL and GnuTLS. I don't need Mozilla NSS. Heck, maybe I want to use Firefox only offline, then I wouldn't even require all those networking libraries that FF ships with. Yet all of it is there. Why doesn't FF ask about every little dependency upon installation?
Mozilla/Firefox is in no way different that Apple/iTunes in this regard.
"Bonjour" has no idea what he's talking about, of course. He's talking about pieces of the same app whereas Apple treats Bonjour, iTunes, etc as different installations. It's just that no matter what you do, you HAVE to also the other bits with iTunes now. And you'll have AppleMobileDeviceService.exe, iPodService.exe and iTunesHelper.exe running in the background from the moment you turn your PC on to when you turn it off again. Firefox installs no such services, of course.
You are just splitting hairs. It doesn't matter if it's separate applications or within one application. IMHO media codecs have nothing to do inside a browser. Every OS has a multimedia framework just to do that.
So when iTunes installs the Bonjour/zeroconf protocol for its networking features, it's no different than FF's Ogg support. At least zeroconf is a good technology, unlike Ogg Theora that just sucks compared to Dirac (Dirac is patent-free as well)....
Bonjour: your analogy is messed up. During the Firefox installation, you don't see check boxes to optionally install Ogg support, animated GIF, etc, with the installer ending up simply installing everything regardless of what you specifically wanted to leave out. Besides, all these Firefox features you mentioned are far from an annoyance compared to those Apple apps.
So you are saying that Bonjour should not be optional? No checkboxes and everything?
And: If you don't like Apple apps, just don't them. Your whining is childish.
If it's gonna be installed no matter what you do, then yeah, the so-called "option" should be left out. Just to clear things up.
I know Asa is certainly very Mozilla-biased, but you got him beat hands down with your blatant Apple fanboyism.
@Stifu: Bonjour has a separate upgrade option because you may not use iTunes but you may use Bonjour. (Remember that when Apple developed Bonjour/Rendezvous/zeroconf, it also released it for Windows before its functionality was introduced into iTunes.) That checkbox is not provided as a way of deselecting it from the iTunes install.
I can't believe Apple can get away with this. It sets a very dangerous precedent.
Imagine Google doing this. Google Chrome browser brings an update window up. Within that every time numerous other completely non related seperate programs are ticked for installation like Google Earth, Picasa, Google Toolbar, Google Desktop, and Google Talk. You untick them frustrated at having to do so every time. The installer completely ignores you, and downloads the installer packages onto your computer anyway.
Google would get a much harder time for something like this, than what Apple are now. And the scenario is pretty much the same. It's totally un acceptable that by installing one product of a vendor, you get stuck into a chain of getting involved with a host of others often not knowingly or by choice.
Without sounding like a Linux fanboy...this is why I am so much more comfortable with Linux. There is much better transparency with the Linux OS than with either the Mac or Windows. At work, we do security scans on our Windows/Unix/Linux networks...and it always seems we're surprised to find how much Apple software we have on our PCs when we only intended to have Quicktime loaded.
We've found that both the Real Player and Apple's Quicktime almost always comes with strings attached. Because of this, we keep Apple and Real products only on those PCs deemed necessary to have the required codecs.
Without sounding like a Linux fanboy...this is why I am so much more comfortable with Linux. There is much better transparency with the Linux OS than with either the Mac or Windows. At work, we do security scans on our Windows/Unix/Linux networks...and it always seems we're surprised to find how much Apple software we have on our PCs when we only intended to have Quicktime loaded.
We've found that both the Real Player and Apple's Quicktime almost always comes with strings attached. Because of this, we keep Apple and Real products only on those PCs deemed necessary to have the required codecs.
Yeah, imagine if installing Chrome also installed a service, let's call it GoogleUpdate.exe, that kept running after you closed the browser. People would be up in arms over that sort of thing, wouldn't they?
Seriously... Atrocities? Aren't there more serious issues in the world that are true atrocities without denigrating one companies installation practices using the word atrocities. What would an installation atrocity even look like? Something that killed a member of your family if you chose to unselect some check box?
It isn't that, and there are many other companies that add things to your box without asking you, or asking in odd obscure wording that tricks the user. I come to your blog to read about firefox. Lately it has become a rant about an assortment of things other than that, it's your blog, enjoy. Just remember that most folks are attracted to your insight into the web world, the flogging a competitor on an issue that 9/10th of the windows users I have talked to said, "meh, I hadn't noticed" doesn't really do much for me.
The difference is in how it's packaged and presented to the user. If the Ogg library is a build-time dependency, then you don't offer a check box suggesting that it's an optional install. Then something like Ogg is treated as part of the program and does not get its own name (while a curious techie can find the library name, it does not get its own marketing/program name or its own installer check box). Basically the issue is one of deception. The user expected that unchecking a box would be honored, but it were not. That's a pretty big deal. You cannot explain this bad behavior away by saying "oh it's just a build-time dependency like Ogg". No sir.
@Leo: Again, that is not what's happening. Bonjour is provided separately because some people use Bonjour but not iTunes. (Adobe CS3, Pidgin, Trillian, wireless printing to Airport Stations all use Bonjour.) The checkbox is not making it an optional component. Because you want to think that, doesn't make it so. It is not deception. That checkmark is there to protect users as Asa is so fond of saying.
So they should probably disable-select the checkbox for Bonjour if it's a run-time dependency of iTunes (which does bother me a bit -- adding a network protocol and increasing attack surface area for the sake of music syncing to an iPod, when I don't even want that but it came with Quicktime, which I was using Quicktime Alternative for but Safari brought it in with its updater when I wasn't paying attention...). Possibly consider a treeview checkbox scheme to make the dependencies explicit. Even though the dependency isn't all that strict.
The most generous I can stretch this is to say that this is a seriously flawed (stereotype-defyingly flawed) UI from Apple.
reactions, thoughts, comments, etc.
Unbelievable.. my install procedure wasnt as detailed at Ed's - simply deselected Bonjour and Safari, and continued to install iTunes. Noticed today that Bonjour was already installed. Attempted to uninstall Bonjour. Now starting iTunes gives a warning!
http://nitin.wlkr.net/2008/09/bye-bye-itunes.html
Posted by: Nitin | September 20, 2008 1:31 AM
Bonjour is a required dependency of all network-related features of iTunes (eg. syncing with AppleTV). Firefox 3.1 also installed Ogg support without asking me. So what?
Posted by: Bonjour | September 20, 2008 4:13 AM
Ogg support isn't going to require a bunch of always-resident background tasks that you don't necessarily need (I'm sure people could care less about iTunes networking functions for the most part), it's just codecs. That's quite a different story from something that actively looks for hardware to connect to.
Posted by: Ben Basson | September 20, 2008 5:47 AM
Ogg support is there and I don't need it. I don't need Animated GIF support either. I already have a GUI toolkit, I don't need XUL. I already have OpenSSL and GnuTLS. I don't need Mozilla NSS. Heck, maybe I want to use Firefox only offline, then I wouldn't even require all those networking libraries that FF ships with. Yet all of it is there. Why doesn't FF ask about every little dependency upon installation?
Mozilla/Firefox is in no way different that Apple/iTunes in this regard.
Posted by: Bonjour | September 20, 2008 6:03 AM
"Bonjour" has no idea what he's talking about, of course. He's talking about pieces of the same app whereas Apple treats Bonjour, iTunes, etc as different installations. It's just that no matter what you do, you HAVE to also the other bits with iTunes now. And you'll have AppleMobileDeviceService.exe, iPodService.exe and iTunesHelper.exe running in the background from the moment you turn your PC on to when you turn it off again. Firefox installs no such services, of course.
Posted by: John T. Haller | September 20, 2008 7:24 AM
You are just splitting hairs. It doesn't matter if it's separate applications or within one application. IMHO media codecs have nothing to do inside a browser. Every OS has a multimedia framework just to do that.
So when iTunes installs the Bonjour/zeroconf protocol for its networking features, it's no different than FF's Ogg support. At least zeroconf is a good technology, unlike Ogg Theora that just sucks compared to Dirac (Dirac is patent-free as well)....
Posted by: Bonjour | September 20, 2008 10:08 AM
Bonjour: your analogy is messed up. During the Firefox installation, you don't see check boxes to optionally install Ogg support, animated GIF, etc, with the installer ending up simply installing everything regardless of what you specifically wanted to leave out. Besides, all these Firefox features you mentioned are far from an annoyance compared to those Apple apps.
Posted by: Stifu | September 20, 2008 11:14 AM
So you are saying that Bonjour should not be optional? No checkboxes and everything?
And: If you don't like Apple apps, just don't them. Your whining is childish.
Posted by: Bonjour | September 20, 2008 11:18 AM
If it's gonna be installed no matter what you do, then yeah, the so-called "option" should be left out. Just to clear things up.
I know Asa is certainly very Mozilla-biased, but you got him beat hands down with your blatant Apple fanboyism.
Posted by: Stifu | September 20, 2008 11:40 AM
@Stifu: Bonjour has a separate upgrade option because you may not use iTunes but you may use Bonjour. (Remember that when Apple developed Bonjour/Rendezvous/zeroconf, it also released it for Windows before its functionality was introduced into iTunes.) That checkbox is not provided as a way of deselecting it from the iTunes install.
Posted by: Tim F. | September 20, 2008 7:30 PM
I can't believe Apple can get away with this. It sets a very dangerous precedent.
Imagine Google doing this. Google Chrome browser brings an update window up. Within that every time numerous other completely non related seperate programs are ticked for installation like Google Earth, Picasa, Google Toolbar, Google Desktop, and Google Talk. You untick them frustrated at having to do so every time. The installer completely ignores you, and downloads the installer packages onto your computer anyway.
Google would get a much harder time for something like this, than what Apple are now. And the scenario is pretty much the same. It's totally un acceptable that by installing one product of a vendor, you get stuck into a chain of getting involved with a host of others often not knowingly or by choice.
Posted by: Kris Silver | September 21, 2008 3:12 AM
Dear Apple:
Thank you for reminding me, yet again, why I will never, ever purchase one of your products.
Regards,
An avid computer user and spender.
Posted by: jdhas | September 21, 2008 8:02 AM
Without sounding like a Linux fanboy...this is why I am so much more comfortable with Linux. There is much better transparency with the Linux OS than with either the Mac or Windows. At work, we do security scans on our Windows/Unix/Linux networks...and it always seems we're surprised to find how much Apple software we have on our PCs when we only intended to have Quicktime loaded.
We've found that both the Real Player and Apple's Quicktime almost always comes with strings attached. Because of this, we keep Apple and Real products only on those PCs deemed necessary to have the required codecs.
Posted by: BryanSD | September 21, 2008 11:24 AM
Without sounding like a Linux fanboy...this is why I am so much more comfortable with Linux. There is much better transparency with the Linux OS than with either the Mac or Windows. At work, we do security scans on our Windows/Unix/Linux networks...and it always seems we're surprised to find how much Apple software we have on our PCs when we only intended to have Quicktime loaded.
We've found that both the Real Player and Apple's Quicktime almost always comes with strings attached. Because of this, we keep Apple and Real products only on those PCs deemed necessary to have the required codecs.
Posted by: BryanSD | September 21, 2008 11:26 AM
Yeah, imagine if installing Chrome also installed a service, let's call it GoogleUpdate.exe, that kept running after you closed the browser. People would be up in arms over that sort of thing, wouldn't they?
Oh, wait...
Posted by: Kelson | September 22, 2008 8:46 AM
Seriously... Atrocities? Aren't there more serious issues in the world that are true atrocities without denigrating one companies installation practices using the word atrocities. What would an installation atrocity even look like? Something that killed a member of your family if you chose to unselect some check box?
It isn't that, and there are many other companies that add things to your box without asking you, or asking in odd obscure wording that tricks the user. I come to your blog to read about firefox. Lately it has become a rant about an assortment of things other than that, it's your blog, enjoy. Just remember that most folks are attracted to your insight into the web world, the flogging a competitor on an issue that 9/10th of the windows users I have talked to said, "meh, I hadn't noticed" doesn't really do much for me.
Posted by: John | September 22, 2008 11:04 AM
@Bonjour:
The difference is in how it's packaged and presented to the user. If the Ogg library is a build-time dependency, then you don't offer a check box suggesting that it's an optional install. Then something like Ogg is treated as part of the program and does not get its own name (while a curious techie can find the library name, it does not get its own marketing/program name or its own installer check box). Basically the issue is one of deception. The user expected that unchecking a box would be honored, but it were not. That's a pretty big deal. You cannot explain this bad behavior away by saying "oh it's just a build-time dependency like Ogg". No sir.
Posted by: Leo | September 22, 2008 3:55 PM
@Leo: Again, that is not what's happening. Bonjour is provided separately because some people use Bonjour but not iTunes. (Adobe CS3, Pidgin, Trillian, wireless printing to Airport Stations all use Bonjour.) The checkbox is not making it an optional component. Because you want to think that, doesn't make it so. It is not deception. That checkmark is there to protect users as Asa is so fond of saying.
Posted by: Tim F. | September 22, 2008 9:02 PM
So they should probably disable-select the checkbox for Bonjour if it's a run-time dependency of iTunes (which does bother me a bit -- adding a network protocol and increasing attack surface area for the sake of music syncing to an iPod, when I don't even want that but it came with Quicktime, which I was using Quicktime Alternative for but Safari brought it in with its updater when I wasn't paying attention...). Possibly consider a treeview checkbox scheme to make the dependencies explicit. Even though the dependency isn't all that strict.
The most generous I can stretch this is to say that this is a seriously flawed (stereotype-defyingly flawed) UI from Apple.
Posted by: Ens | September 23, 2008 1:23 AM