Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

Apple isn't the only company doing this. While updating Sun's Java this week, I noticed that the option to install the "Google Toolbar" is enabled by default. Most users will simply click through and install it.

People should read before accepting. Apple is suggesting their program. I a worst case scenario, meaning the people did not noticed it and installed, it, they can either:

1) Ignore the program
2) Uninstall the program

I really don't what the big deal is about this.

Is like complaining because the Firefox installer comes with "Set as standard browser" checked by default.

I love and use Firefox/Thunderbird/Sunbird.

I also like Asa a lot.

But i really see no issues whatsoever.

Now, another thing would be if apple where installing spyware or something like that.

Aw, give it a rest, Asa. This kind of stuff is all over. I don't use any Apple stuff, but I can't see any particular reason to single out Apple. Just about anything free is nagware, and so is a lot of stuff that isn't free. Some of it's pretty heavy-handed. Have you bought a computer recently? A camera? An optical drive? A Sony CD? Used ZoneAlarm? Eudora? Signed up for an e-mail account? Bought USB Flash memory? Used Windows? Just to mention a few.

I don't get what's wrong with this. I thought the Safari "update" install pushed slightly over the line (though only slightly), but this seems quite reasonable.

Control panels are added by all sorts of third-party apps; mine has Nvidia, Java, Retrospect, and QuickTime control panels, and I don't mind any of them either.

The new release also adds bookmark syncing to Safari for Windows, which is a nice touch; you've been able to sync between Macs for a while.

Simple, I reject ANY apple product on my Windows box. Its purely crap.

So why would you be presented with this dialog then? I'm sure you don't have ANYTHING apple on your pc.

no I don't, so? OSX users bash windows too, they don't have windows, dont they?

I don't need to try everything to understand the situation, otherwise, what do we need school for?

Point is that if you hate everything apple, you won't be seeing that window.

If you more or less like/tolerate apple, you would see the window, at which point you can either:

1) uncheck the mark (if you are smart enough to read what you are installing)
2) if you installed by mistake you can uninstall or ignore.

Not difficult to understand.

tsomarp, you don't have to hate Apple to hate malicious software practices. One could say the same thing about other malware, "if you installed it by mistake, you can uninstall or ignore."

It doesn't matter whether the "mistake" was a result of Apple taking advantage of you or some other bad actor taking advantage of you. It's just wrong an it shouldn't be tolerated, by anyone, regardless of their feelings towards a specific software vendor.

- A

Um, but the Mobile Me Preferences are just part of iTunes (and Safari). iTunes exists to sell iPods and iPhones. Bookmark and/or Contact synchronization, if you choose to pay to use them, is through Mobile Me.

So, I suppose one can get up in arms about not using it and it being installed. But it's still just part of the application. God knows that I don't use 1/10 of the preference panes in Windows anyway...

reinharden

just when the boys and girls at the US DoJ and EU were getting bored and desperate for a rematch

I can hear that golden phrase again: anti-trust :)

So yeah... People don't give a shit!! (as proved in this blog post) lol

I've hacked and disabled the Apple updater a few months ago, so I almost don't remember it anymore.

Asa, so when is mozilla.org going to uncheck the install option of "set as default browser" in firefox?

(obviously firefox's installer)

Also, from your post: "Installing a new and unrequested program on a person's computer is simply unacceptable."

Okay. But Apple didn't do that here. They took the sync options that were present in iTunes, updated them to work with their rebranded service and to add more features, and now the iTunes installer puts an icon in Control Panel for them. They're still described and installed as part of iTunes, and removing iTunes will remove the MobileMe control panel too.

Maybe you think that the moment something stands on its own enough to get its own icon, it should be un-bundled from its parent product, and I suppose you can feel that way if you want to. (Hey, I'm thrilled Mozilla has Firefox and Thunderbird now and not just the-suite-now-known-as-Seamonkey.) But there's nothing sneaky here — Apple's sync solution on Windows is iTunes.

Tim F: with a new profile, with no extension?

Hmm. So it just crashes all the time, regardless of what you're doing or which page you're on? You can't think of a possible cause?
If this is a Firefox problem, the best solution would obviously be to get it fixed. Are there crash reports (like, in about:crashes)?

Hmm... I didn't even notice until I read this blog post. (I updated iTunes last week.) But when I saw this, I went and checked my control panel, and... yep, that is there.

But, like a lot of other users here, it doesn't bother me so much. It would bother me if they installed some other program that was always running in the background, or ran as a tray application, or tried to set itself as default, or tried to show you ads or something.

But this doesn't seem to do anything unless you go and turn it on. If someone is going to bundle software, that's the preferred way to do it at least. :-P

@Tim F.,
Take it up in the Support Forum. This isn't normal, and there are some possibilities to check out. Send me a PM if you want.

Another example is Skype, which install a Firefox extension to the program directory without asking in the installer.

off-topic comments removed. please keep to the topic. thanks.

- A

Bwahaha, my comments are off-topic but those responding to them aren't? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. Very transparent and helpful of you, Asa.

Tim, yeah, your comments were very much off-topic. Maybe I should have said "removing Tim F.'s off-topic comments." I'll do that next time.

- A

Yes, I know you can't fathom the notion that malicious means DOES SOMETHING BAD, not DOES NOTHING, but yes, it is ON-TOPIC. But lovin' the transparency.

Sorry if I missed that among your overwhelmingly off-topic comments you did have a few on-topic words. Maybe next time I'll look closer but probably not.

Oh, and glad you're lovin' the transparency. I don't delete comments without saying something to people following the thread. I, too, love transparency.

@ Tsom Arp:

Why would they remove the 'default browser' option?

If you've downloaded Firefox, then there's a pretty good chance you'll want to use it as your default browser. If not, you can remove this option.

However, this is completely different to updating iTunes, and suddendly finding a new control panel installed.

The problem here is Apple chooses it's 'Software update' app to check for an install new security updates *as well as* new software.

If people continue to get peeved at this practice, then there's a very good chance they'll ditch using 'Software update' altogether.

Then people will be left with out of date, and potentially unsecure software.

I think Apple could do better than seperate security updates from non-essential updates (and new software offerings). Perhaps using a different update mechanism.

Mr Lizar, on the same way, if i have installed an apple app already, there is a very good chance i like apple, and apple apps in general.

Also, i installing FF could mean i'm a developer that uses all browser, so no need to change default.

Or that i'm an opera user, and that i want to try FF.

Or that i'm an IE user, and that i want to try FF.

etc, etc.

last time Apple took a small step towards the right direction, and in response Mozilla/Firefox took a small step towards the wrong direction (with the "set default browser" option changed from a clear pop-up prompt to a small obscure pre-checked checkbox during the installation), and I guess that's why Apple think it's okay to be pushy when Mozilla/Firefox is much more pushy anyway, so Firefox should remove this malware-like installer before accusing Apple of anything. As far as I'm concerned, NONE of these malware-like behavior should be tolerated, not the Apple updater, neither the Firefox installer!!!

Oh and with Firefox 3.0.1 even after I carefully un-tick the "set default browser" checkbox during the installation, after I run Firefox, it somehow asks me again whether I want to set it as the default browser, and I have to un-tick the "check Firefox as the default browser at startup" manually AGAIN. Seems Firefox just annoys people to no end with its "default browser" settings, just like Asa Dotzler here :rolleyes:

> If you've downloaded Firefox, then there's a pretty good chance you'll want to use it as your default browser. If not, you can remove this option.

Nope, even when I mainly use Firefox to surf the net, I don't want it to be the default browser, since during the rare instances of some third party programs wanting to open links in a browser (ie. when the "default browser" setting matters), they need IE to work. And for all other general surfing, I manually open the browser myself. I do use Firefox as my default browser manually when I'm surfing, but not as my "default browser" that automatically opens links from third-party programs.

And like people have mentioned, by your own (illogical) reasoning, if you downloaded Apple stuff, then there's a pretty good chance you'll want other craps from Apple anyway :rolleyes:

> However, this is completely different to updating iTunes, and suddendly finding a new control panel installed.

Indeed it's different, since adding a new control panel item with a program installation is quite okay. On the other hand setting itself as the default app and annoying people with no end is not.

> I think Apple could do better than seperate security updates from non-essential updates (and new software offerings). Perhaps using a different update mechanism.

And Firefox can do better by removing its malware-like behavior and not pre-checking the checkbox of "set default browser" during installation and not asking "default browser?" again after installation to annoy people even more. Firefox should stop this practice now and Firefox users should stand up and say "No more!" to this kind of abusive and malware-like behavior!!!

It's sneaky. You may not realise you have any Apple software installed at all (Quicktime, who would have thought?), or you may have known but thought you had disabled the update installer (as I had thought) but no, sure enough I booted one day and an Apple virus, erm, update installer that I thought I'd disabled, popped up and told me I should update to Safari 3.1 or whatever. Wait a minute, I thought. I didn't think that I had an Apple updater enabled. Wait a minute, I thought. I don't have Safari either.

I kinda dislike it when programs install automatic updaters that run when I boot up. What's wrong with waiting until I run their software? Not including this Safari incident, the worst offender I have is the Adobe updater. Every single time I manually make an update to Adobe software, big or small, it re-installs the automatic updater that I had deliberately disabled, and it places a new shortcut to Adobe Reader on the desktop, that I had also deliberately removed and did not request.

Disappointed to see the first several comments defending Apple for a practice that is questionable at the least. Given their recent missteps in this area, and their in-general predatory behavior on the Windows platform, I'd say this is not excusable.

I love my Apple products, but I really really despise their Windows software, and find it very hard to even advocate for my friends now. Quicktime, as much as I love it (and use it instead of Windows Media wherever possible), is completely crap at putting stuff on my desktop and in my startup items without my permission EVERY TIME I USE ANY APPLE SOFTWARE. Quite simply, I've used Spybot to block automatically pretty much every Apple permission I can, and am considering uninstalling iTunes again (now that I don't need to sync my Outlook contacts through iTunes).

Someone inside Apple needs to realize that behaving like Microsoft is the exact WRONG way to compete with Microsoft, even on Windows. Apple has done so many things right to start turning the tide and gaining legions of switchers, but it almost looks like they don't want so many. I've been urging everyone to get Apple laptops, and am continually less vocal in doing so as I see how Apple behaves with every bit of power it gains....

>Mr Lizar, on the same way, if i have installed an apple app already, there is a
>very good chance i like apple, and apple apps in general.

I own an iMac and love it. This does not mean that I want new control panel entries and other software I did not ask for automatically installed on my Windows work computer.

Imagine if all companies would do this. "Hey, you installed our software and we therefore assume that you will be happy to know that we also have 45 other non-related products that we will install on your computer when you update the software you downloaded"

Well, it would be much worse if Apple included spyware with their Windows programs. But Apple never has and probably never will do this.