Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

Well, I'm actually happy it's returning (though it would have been nice if you actually linked to the bug here; now I'll have to go hunting through Bugzilla).

Particularly annoying was that the context menu appearing anywhere in the download manager was a context for the selected download, which meant that "Clear List" was not available when an active download was selected. Also, making the context menu have the selected download as context even when you right-click somewhere in the download manager's empty space was downright confusing.

Asa, if you're saying that the Clear List button is returning to the Download Manager in FF3... I'd say that's a good thing. I can't see what a user has to loose from having it?

If having a huge download history is such a good thing you'll have to let users realize this for themselves. Just removing the Clear List button is plain annoying for the user who wants to do just that. Then, as you say, you can remove the button in a future version of Firefox.

Its definitely a good thing that the button is coming back.... a context menu item to clear the list never made any sense as you could only context click on a list item and 'clearing the list' for 1 item doesn't make sense, and besides it was just a pain to to have to do 2 clicks.

Also, i don't know anybody that leaves files in the place they downloaded them to, you always file away, rename or delete them... so the idea of this being some sort of easy access history to the files just doesn't work.

As far as I can tell, the most serious consideration of the issue in that bug comes from Brendan Eich, who is in favour of the button. The anti-button side seem to avoid answering the numerous questions that he raises. Given the lack of serious replies to his comments, it seems that the button was brought back for quite strong reasons (continuity for naive users, undiscoverability of the context menu, slowness of long downloads lists).

Also happy that the button is back. Brendan's comment were awesome.

Ben,

continuity for naive users? what does that mean? You mean continuity for Firefox 2 users?

undiscoverability of a context menu? command+a and delete/backspace seems to work for every other simple tree list in every other program I have installed. It works just fine in the bookmarks manager without a "delete all" button. It works just fine in the history sidebar without a "clear list" button. Or, are you, as it appears, just rephrasing argument #1 that it breaks the pattern that Firefox 2 users are used to?

slowness of long download lists is easily addressed by shortening the timer a tad and having some reasonable expiration like for history items.

There's really no compelling argument that I can find in the bug other than "there are people that are used to a particular experience that happens to fit their particular use case (I wonder which actually came first there.) who don't want it to change."

But you know what? I don't really care too much because managing downloads just isn't a major piece of my time online. If it was, I think I'd have a bitchin' add-on that would give me real power. I just have to be more careful to avoid permanent dataloss now so that you can save a mouse click.

Like I said, I'm just thankful that what I've read out in blogs about the awfulness of the awesomebar didn't storm up in Bugzilla the way it did for Download Manager or my favorite feature in Firefox 3 might be gone.

Change is hard and you win some and lose some. I'll take the awesomebar and places over DM anyday.

James,

"Also, i don't know anybody that leaves files in the place they downloaded them to,"

I'm not using the download manager as a file manager. Why would you assume that. Oh, perhaps because you assume that your use case is the same as everyone else's?

To me, it's more data about where I've been and what web content I've engaged with. It's like my history and my bookmarks and I can use it later on to find out where I was and what I did. Now I have to be really careful not to hit that oh so tempting button and lose all that data.

So, my dataloss takes a backseat to you mouse click savings.

I used to regularly curse that cookies and passwords "clear all" button for the same reason -- at least those have a warning now. Making it really really easy, inviting, even, to permanently destroy data I want to keep around is wrong. Had that button never been added in the first place, and instead a normal selectable and deletable tree list been implemented, everyone would have learned to just select all and hit delete like they do for every other sane tree.

I sure am glad (and you should be too,) that whoever put that damn button in didn't also put a "Clear All" button at the bottom of the bookmarks manager or the history manager cuz apparently once you put it in, it's really really hard to take it out.

- A

Asa -- Those weren't my points, and I'm not really the right person to defend them. However, I was simply listing (hopefully accurately) points made by Brendan Eich in bugzilla. He defends them quite convincingly, in my opinion.

My broader point is that the best way to deal with the rude, the aggressive, the liars, etc, is to ignore them, and continue a rational debate anyway. If you ignore the nonsense in that bug, you are left with a sensible argument for the button from Eich, with little reasoned opposition. At the end, it seems that he deservedly won the argument, and the right thing was done.

You're incredibly impulsive aren't you Asa? But really why would you ever want to clear all your bookmarks. If it was a common need there would have been a button.

People do clear their download list a lot though because they download a lot and because they don't manage them with Firefox. They use the download and then delete it half the time.

"undiscoverability of a context menu? command+a and delete/backspace"

Asa I'm not sure whether being able to clear the list at all is worth it to the less web savy but I know for sure that people like my father never use keyboard shortcuts. He might discover the context menu but it'd be by chance.

As I say I'm not sure if he'd want/need to clear the list but if he did (Maybe he's downloaded a auberegine fetish PDF or something, I'd be glad not to know about that. :/) it would certainly be much harder without the button for him to work out how to do so.

I think it's re-inclusion is a positive or at the least, as you yourself say, not a big deal.

Personally, I was a little disappointed when I noticed the Clear List button was removed. After a little thought I understood why it was removed - but I'm happy it's coming back.

This post will probably get a lot of comments from people that are happy to see the button return - but obviously that doesn't mean anyone prefers its return. In the same regard, the 6 vocal members on Bugzilla does not represent the total number of people that prefer a Clear List button.

Oh for pete sake Asa, read the bug, Brendan Eich, Mike Beltzner and Mike Connor all thought it was the right thing to do in the end.

As you can see reading the bug, I was one of the supporters of bringing it back and I argued from reasonable rationale points. Something that was ignored to start off with and you are ignoring now.

"About half a dozen vocal advocates of the Firefox 2 status quo, out of a pool of more than 3 million people using the improved feature in Firefox 3 betas"

"undiscoverability of a context menu? command+a and delete/backspace seems to work for every other simple tree list in every other program I have installed."

"slowness of long download lists is easily addressed by shortening the timer a tad and having some reasonable expiration like for history items."

Read the bug, you'll see why those are all invalid arguments.

"There's really no compelling argument that I can find in the bug other than "

Well you didn't read it properly then and took the same attitude as the devs did till the CTO intervened.

"I sure am glad (and you should be too,) that whoever put that damn button in didn't also put a "Clear All" button at the bottom of the bookmarks manager or the history manager cuz apparently once you put it in, it's really really hard to take it out."

The best I can take to that, is the argument isn't a fair comparison and again you should actually read the bug, especially Brendan Eich's comments.

"To me, it's more data about where I've been and what web content I've engaged with. It's like my history and my bookmarks and I can use it later on to find out where I was and what I did"

hmm, I see your point - normally if i needed to re-download a file i would find the page that linked to it in my history and grab it that way rather then use the download manager history.

I think the problem here is that all I've ever used the download manager for is a status window to view the progress of active downloads. If i needed the history of where i got the file from then i would use the history window.

I can see the usefulness of downloaded file history but seems to me it should just be part of your global history (and managed as such) not separated off cluttering up my download progress window

I keep my download list clear all the time, too. Command+A then hitting Delete works, and that's natural on the Mac, because similar lists work the same way in every other app. Maybe it's not so natural on other platforms.

do you also click on those ads that say "click here now to claim your prize?" Do you always touch things that have "wet paint" signs on them?

It seems as if this is something you don't like and that anyone who does is wrong. I don't agree. I've never accidentally clicked the clear all button in the downloads so unless you obsessively click every button that you see I don't see why it would be such a high risk thing to have around.

@jccalhoun

LOL

Speaking as one of the 3 million people who used Firefox 3 but didn't comment in this bug, the missing button did bother me. I was just too lazy to complain.

And all this time I thought that hiding basic functionality in a context menu was a bad thing. I really must read up on these new user-interface guidelines.

Where does this 3 million figure come from btw? I thought metrics showed actual beta users at about 700'000 - 900'000. Wouldn't want Asa inflating Firefox usage figures.

Even if you take 3 million, only a tiny % ever report feedback, even less of that % provide it a meaningful place. And the number of votes on that bug is quite large for such a new bug. Also, as you can see from this bug, whenever you actually ASK users, they overwhelmingly support bringing it back.

As commented (directly or indirectly) by Brendan Eich, Mike Beltzner and Mike Connor, the current set-up just isn't good enough to get rid of the clean-up button.

Asa, I'm confused. Could you explain why removing the Clear List button is a "pretty cool step forward"?

Removing the Clear List button was a horrible decision - the context menu was a pain to have to use ever time - I also miss the "Remove" link on individual finished items.

Count me in the "glad it's coming back, but hadn't bothered finding a bug for it to complain" group.

Do people here actually use DL manager? It's so much simpler for experienced user to let it never pop up and let it clear the list automatically. Just choose and remember the location/folder you dl your files.
And for novice users "Clear list" button is obviously must to have. Good call by the devs.

"a pretty cool step forward for how the Download Manager presents its much improved value to users"

By removing a button? I don't get it.

Add me to the list of users who wanted the button back but weren't on the bug.

I haven't read the bug, but I guess the thing is devs weren't able to come up with an equally intuitive way for people to take control of this part of their privacy. Maybe a confirmation dialog could be added to prevent the data loss risk Asa remarked. It is a valid point: things are accidentally clicked all the time and they don't (or shouldn't) tend to delete user data.

Asa, I don't think we are getting back to "the dysfunction of pre-Firefox days." unless not if based on this pull back only. Regarding noise, I think the awesome bar has been bitched so much at this point that this alone proves devs are sticking to guidelines above people's cry.

Damian said "Where does this 3 million figure come from btw? I thought metrics showed actual beta users at about 700'000 - 900'000. Wouldn't want Asa inflating Firefox usage figures."

Actually, you can assume that 99.99% of the time I've got better numbers than you and just about everyone else in the world. I watch these graphs like a hawk. We're over 1 million active daily users which translates to over 3 million total users.

Yesterday it was 1,136,051 ADU and it's probably going to hit 1.3 or 1.4 million by the end of the week.

You can "think" what the metrics are or you can ask someone who knows what the metrics are. I recommend the second option.

- A

Dave Miller, actually, it's much more common across all of Mac, Windows, and Linux that simple tree lists like this _not_ have a "clear/delete" all button and do rely on the user knowing how to select and delete. The button is an invitation to accidental dataloss that just isn't likely when relying on select+delete.

- A

Ben Karel, it was a cool step forward because we were able to remove a hack put in to keep the download manager from bringing Firefox performance to a crawl. It was a cool step forward because, like browsing history, we can now save that data nearly unbounded and provide users with a quick and easy search feature to find the things in the list that have fallen out of view. Those benefits won't be at all obvious if we keep telling users "unlike your other data stores, we think you probably want to or should mass clear this all the time". If we put a "clear all my bookmarks" button on the end of the bookmarks toolbar or made an equally prominent button in the places organizer, lots of people would accidentally delete their important history and bookmarks data and lots of others would wonder if they should be deleting that stuff.

- A

In FF2, the only reason i ever used that button was that FF would become painfully slow if i didn't.

Then again, i don't discard old text messages, browser history, or worn-out t-shirts either. Some people do. My wife, for instance, is practically obsessive about doing some of those things. To each their own.

Frankly, i'd be a lot happier if temporary downloads (where the actual downloaded file is deleted when FF closes) didn't clutter up the list with those i've explicitly downloaded. More than once already, i've found myself assuming i'd saved an item locally because it appeared in that list, only to find that it was long gone.

At least the terminology has improved to the point now where i don't half expect *the files themselves* to be deleted when i clear the list... not that i'd mind, if it did really work that way. Hmm... can i get a button for FF that cleans out my wardrobe? My wife would thank you...

Asa, would you be happy if the "Clear List" button turned into an "Undo" button when clicked?

I completely don't agree with your bookmark analogy Asa. For 1 very important reason:

People don't treat a download manager like a bookmark system

IE doesn't even keep any such data at all with its download manager and people are happy with that. Stop trying to enforce usage behaviors on people, especially when the download manager isn't well designed enough to cope with it. Have a 500 long list of downloads which takes over a minute to load is not what a standard user wants.

Maybe in the future, like when there's a good implementation of bug 430000, but in the mean time stop forcing user behavior in to an unwanted situation.

And you'd realise that was the rationale for if you'd read a lot of the good comments in the bug and not just because a couple of users were being rude.

Hey Asa, have you gotten tired of Apple/Safari bashing? Is that the reason you now bitch at your users?

The arrogant attitude of you Mozilla guys is the reason I already switched from Thunderbird to KMail and Firefox will be replaced by Konqueror once the WebKit KPart is stable.

Damian said "IE doesn't even keep any such data at all with its download manager and people are happy with that. "

yeah. great measure there. as long as we do as well as the awesome IE, people will be happy.

Damian also said "but in the mean time stop forcing user behavior in to an unwanted situation"

if you can show me a user that I've forced into a behavior, I'll have that discussion, but until then, how about not accusing me of something I haven't done.

@kurt, I've never bashed safari or apple. I've offered my opinions and informed criticism. because it doesn't match up with your opinion doesn't make it bashing.

- A

Wow, this discussion turned out real nice.

Asa said: "You can "think" what the metrics are or you can ask someone who knows what the metrics are. I recommend the second option."

Thanks for being so wonderfully condescending, I was getting those figures of tech websites who quoted Mozilla officials. With all due respect, I'm not going to assume you are infallible, if you give figures people are going to question their source.

Asa said: "if you can show me a user that I've forced into a behavior, I'll have that discussion, but until then, how about not accusing me of something I haven't done."

Thankfully I don't have to care about having a discussion with you, my argument won over people higher ups in Mozilla than you. Which is kind of good, because your only repeating the same false arguments that are already made in that bug.

As pointed out in the bug, it's not on the onus of the user to try and request to keep something, it's on the onus of the developer to show that their new system is good enough to replace a highly used feature. If you had properly read the bug, which clearly you haven't otherwise you'd know this and would also be responding to the fact that devs admitted that the current system wasn't good enough, you'd be starting from a more intelligent argument than you have now.

I was only really accusing you in the hypothetical, it's something you want to happen, so the consequences of this want would be to force user behavior.

Damian, you accused me of making up numbers.

"Wouldn't want Asa inflating Firefox usage figures." is not an honest question about the numbers, it's an accusation of fraud or deception. You were explicitly calling into question my honesty and that's not something I'm going to just sit back and take.

(In fact, I'm probably the Mozilla Official that provided those outdated figures you point to. If I wasn't, you can bet that person was working from the same exact data that I was.)

And you accused me of forcing something on people. You didn't say anything about my wants there, you made claims about my actions. But even if you did intend it in the hypothetical or in relation to my wants, you'd still be wrong.

If I really wanted to force this change on people, you'd have seen me going to bat for it and I didn't. You won't find a single comment from me in that bug or any back channels that might have influenced the outcome.

I'm mostly resigned to the squeaky wheels getting the grease and it's pretty rare these days -- certainly much more rare than back when I was helping lead the project and driving a very large piece of its early design, to see me trying to help move the product features forward.

I fought that fight for the first two or three years of Firefox's existence, (starting back in the spring of 2002,) to I think very good ends, and I've since moved on to other areas -- in big part because feature conservatism is mostly proportionate to popularity and with Mozilla approaching 200 million users, the opportunities to create disruptive change via Firefox product features are rapidly shrinking.

I'm thrilled we have people who still have the energy to drive new features and the removal of poorly designed or obsolete old features forward -- even in the face of massive opposition from a very vocal and often rude minority. If we didn't have those people, we wouldn't have several of Firefox's really killer features.

- A

I'd be interested to see your metric analysis then Asa XD. I'm still not convinced that you aren't inflating Firefox usage figures, I don't mean this to be rude, but how would we ever know? You say to roughly triple the daily users, does that apply specifically to the subset of people who download beta software? It seems to me that those people would be more inclined to be online every day. I really just wanted to see an analysis of it.

In relation to your arguement, I quote your blog post as:
"managed to stall a pretty cool step forward"
If that didn't mean you *want* the "clear list" button to be removed, then you've got quite a confusing point of view.

I've been using Bugzilla seriously for about 4 months now. In that short amount of time I too feel like I've fought the good fight. I might not yet of learnt to code for Firefox (certainly a future aim), but I've found bugs, reported them, got them confirmed (don't need to do that anymore, I have full editbug status now), if they're not considered a priority then I've occasionally appealed to the community, found a coder, got them to fix it and made sure it got checked in before a code freeze that at the time seemed like it may of missed Fx3 otherwise.

In this case I really do feel like I fought the good fight. I posted calm rational arguments, deterred people from making outbursts on the bug and finally helped convince Mozilla folk that the search system just wasn't good enough as it stood to remove the easily discoverable "clear list" button (and no, a surprising amount of people don't automatically use context menu's unless explicitly taught otherwise).

You talk about removal of "poorly designed" features, well the download manager in Beta 5 to me is a very poorly designed feature. It lacks OS integration (especially with Windows) like the rest of Firefox strives for, it very easily becomes an unwieldy large, generally useless, list that takes ages to load and it's attempted colour scheme on Windows failed quite badly. In fact, I could go on and on as to how poor I think of this download manager, (and have done numerous times in Firefox and Developer IRC, as well as trying to file or support appropriate bugs).

To me, bug 429862 seems to strengthen the download manager's search system enough to remove the 'clear list' button. I don't inherently think the 'clear list' button should be kept, but as admitted by the developers, simply adding a search box is not good enough and you do have to take in to account of Fx2 users user habits, especially if they're not bad ones.

This whole thing is irrelevant now that there's a sane third option.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=251337

ant I don't think bug 251337 is a suitable 3rd option, it doesn't really address the issues all that well, though it is a useful feature.

To me bug 429862 ( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=429862 ) would make more sense in the context of the issues raised in the clear list debate.

I see Pidgin has forked over a similar way that developers wanted a "God feature" ignoring user opinions and usage behavior. I doubt such a drastic thing would happen that easily with Firefox, mainly because of brand recognition, and I do think the developers do listen and do a fantastic job 99.9% of the time, just hope lessons are learnt (which reading mconnor's latest comment in the bug they have) :-).