Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

OK. I'm convinced. You really do enjoy baiting Opera fans, don't you?

I see a few common elements, but no more than any other recently-designed Web 2.0-compliant site. Certainly not enough similarity to call it a "complete rip-off" -- that's just needlessly incendiary.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mozilla contract out the work on the site design?

It is normally considered good form to focus on your own company's strengths, rather than trying to bludgeon the competition with criticism in the hope of somehow boosting your own image. (hint: it just make yourself look like a hack)

It seems to me that Asa prefers going for the cheap shot.

Mike T, "competition"? I don't consider Opera competition at all. IE is competition. Opera is a mostly inconsequential also-ran.

Still, I like the Opera browser -- and always have. It's Opera's marketing and PR tactics that bother me. From buying Firefox keywords on Google to advertise the 100 million Opera downloads lie, to claiming Firefox's awards as their own, to blatantly ripping off the Firefox website design, Opera's marketing and PR tactics are dishonest (and ultimately futile)

- A

Trolling at its best. Can I say "it's MoFo's marketing and PR tactics that bother me"? Yes, I can.

Have a look at this:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mashproxy/
Note the download link. Is it ripped off FF home page, too?

So what about Firefox regularly blatantly ripping off features found in Opera years ago, and now those found in IE7? That's okay?

"From buying Firefox keywords on Google"

That's the first time I've seen that claim. Could you supply more information?

Needless to fuel this fire any more. I would just leave the Opera fanboys alone and ignore their attacks. If you argue with stupid people they tend to drag you down to their level and beat you there with experience.

Asa, I'm unable to verify any of what you said about the PR tactics. Please enlighten us.

If you argue with Asa he tends to drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Funny how Firefox 1.5 and 2.0 both blatantly rip off Opera's features, but that is not a problem I guess.

Yeah, well, we don't have a pretty norwegian girl on mozilla.com, do we ?
We should do just like google, and add a swedish bork-bork cook there on the 1st of april.

"Posted by: testboy on October 6, 2006 12:04 AM " Obviously not me. See, this is what i meant. Trolling and impersonating people gets you nowhere.

I wasn't aware that Opera developers wrote the Opera website. Congratulations Asa, you're now Opera's very own pet Mangelo.

- Chris

http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/current-style.cfm

When you look at the complete pages it becomes far more obvious. Open both of these in tabs and flick between them:

http://en-us.www.mozilla.com/
http://www.opera.com/

Horizontal page split? Check.
Blue on top/grey on bottom color scheme? Check.
Computer display in perspective displaying browser image? Check.
Computer display in perspective image overlapping horizontal blue/grey split? Check.
Circular background watermark behind computer display image? Check.
Rounded green download box? Check.
Red/orange title text with monochrome version number? Check.
...

Quote Chris:

"I wasn't aware that Opera developers wrote the Opera website."

He said Opera web developers, not Opera developers.

The Opera page can't be a rip off of mozilla.com.

The Opera page lacks the following features of the Mozilla home page:

> PC Magazine technical excellence award
> CNET editor's choice award
> PC Magazine Best of the Year award

;-)

Well... I find your wording very aggressive - Stealing? I mean seriously, you need to stop throwing your toys out of your pram when it comes to Opera. Jealousy maybe?

I agree with the comment above, you really should focus on your company's products rather than attacking others. If it was a constructive attack that can be justified, then fine! But really, there was no need for this petty post.

The two ads are not THAT similar... At the end of the day, people will download from looking at what both browser offer. My opinion is that the Opera browser offers what I am looking for and therefore I use it in preference to firefox.

It is bitterness and oposition like this that will make me NOT want to use the firefox browser. I really just don't agree with attacking other companies for no reason other to have an excuse to rant because you don't actually have any REAL news.

On top of that, I commend Opera for getting to where they are today - they can easily rival firefox as far as usability goes and they have done it on a budget which is a fraction of what firefox clearly has. Maybe if Opera had the support that firefox have, then you may find the market share would be VERY different!!!

Oh... and yes... you don't mention it when YOU rip off Opera now do you? Nah - I didn't think so!!!

Well... I find your wording very aggressive - Stealing?

That's the wording usually used by Opera zealots.

they can easily rival firefox as far as usability goes

Depends. My site isn't really usable with Opera ;-)

Maybe this is why they refuse to add a native UI or conform to the HIG on any OS; they're scared one of the OS manufacturers will accuse them of being a rip off. ;)

He said Opera web developers, not Opera developers.

Not at the time I posted, he didn't.

- Chris

Anyone who can not see this is a rip-off is a complete moron. Please shut up.

Not at the time I posted, he didn't.

He did.

"Maybe this is why they refuse to add a native UI or conform to the HIG on any OS"

Like Firefox conforms? Oh, wait, it doesn't.

It's hard to imagine Asa's obsession with this. Maybe he likes flames, but that doesn'r really explain it because he could find any number of incendiary topics. The only logical explanation is that he is worried about Opera overtaking Fx. Bizarre.

Chris, not true. The title was not changed after your initial post.

- A

Well, the green button has been around for a long time, as has the warm color for the product name. If you look at the bottom half of the pages, the two sites use them very differently: Firefox uses it for lots of text, while Opera just has a couple of graphics linking to their other big products.

Maybe I should just repeat what I wrote in the comments on Opera Watch a couple of weeks ago:

Both pages are split horizontally into two main sections. The top section is light blue with a circular design element in the background. The product name appears to the left, in a warm color (red/orange), with the latest version number in black/gray. A brief paragraph and a green download button appear below, with images of the product to the right. The lower section is desaturated, light gray/white.

Aside from that...

The lower section of the new Opera splash page just has a pair of ads for their other two main products. The lower section of the Firefox page has a long promotional text section, a couple of awards, and highlights some of the key features they have over IE (well, for the next few months, anyway).

The Firefox page also has the full header/footer for the Mozilla site, including navigation menus. The Opera splash page is just the splash.

Plus, as Daniel pointed out, Opera emphasizes the human element. (Incidentally, I know I've seen at least two different pictures of the same model -- the blonde in the knit hat -- one profile, one 3/4 and smiling -- but I can't remember for sure whether I've seen the splash page use anyone else from the Opera 9 campaign.)

Asa, sorry, but you are a disgrace to Mozilla.
This and many other articles in your blog aren't good publicity for this wonderful community.

I see asa's point. I don't see anything offending on what he says. What i don't understand, is why opera users are here waiting for asa to post something. If you don't like his thoughts, just don't be here.

I wish more people were like Kelson.

I have to admit, that your obsession with Opera starts becoming patently ridiculous, Asa.

I've been reading Asa's blog for a while. Could Asa be milder toward Opera? Sure. We could all be milder about all things. Do some people want that to happen? Of course they do. Does Asa put a spin on things? Maybe. That's debatable.

However, the claims Asa makes are factual. Everything he says has happened. If you can't find proof of it, it's because Opera obviously cleaned it up, doh. Why would Opera leave some PR disaster like that hanging for too long? Of course they wouldn't. But at the time all the signs were there and visible to those who read Asa's blog in time and clicked on all the evidence. So it was all there just like Asa says.

Asa might be spinning a bit and you can complain that he's not as mild as he could be, blah blah blah. But don't just dismiss everything as a troll. He's not really a troll.

It really ticks me off how anything that we disagree with, or anyone with a consistent opinion is called a "troll" now. That word is way overused.

Maybe Asa lacks moral fiber by not focusing exclusively Firefox (that's not something that I myself would argue for). But he's not a troll.

What's with the sense of humour failure, people? Chill!

Imitation is the highest form of flattery *S*

Hi there,

When I designed this page (yes, it's my work), it was pointed out to me that there were similarities to the Firefox download page. When that happened, I basically predicted that Asa would make this comment. I spend little time worrying about it, because frankly, I couldn't care less about the browsers wars; I just enjoy making Web pages and try to make them in such a way that my employer benefits from it.

So first off, are there similarities? I could see why someone would draw paralells. After all, they both have a blue background, a horizontal line, a big name and download button on the left, and an image on the right. Which makes it look a lot like a million other webpages out there. Incidentally, it also looks a hell of a lot like what we've done in the past on many occasions. So, so much for originality. A page like this must first of all be accessible, so I decided to go for a format that was easy to decipher and familiar to the general user.

So did we/I deliberately rip off mozilla.com. Of course not. After all, that would've been an absolutely senselessly idiotic thing to do as the browser communities are full of people who are itching to cry wolf at the mere indication of foul play. However, it is true that we've admired the simplicity of the Mozilla download page in the past and that we've looked at it several times before. Could some of that have seeped into my work? Of course. Everything I do is a juxtaposition of things I've seen or done. And if it did, if I were Asa, I would have considered it a compliment. But from the little I know of this gentleman's past comments, his glass is always half-empty. Which is unfortunate.

At the end of the day I personally feel it comes down to this, and this is my very personal opinion - Mozilla does marketing better, Opera does technology better. And I really would like to refrain from using the steal word, it's way too strong, but my point is this, and sorry for analyzing you Asa, I know it's invasive and quite rude, that Asa's constant accusations of Opera stealing from Firefox is a very poor way of covering up his guilt of having borrowed a little more than reasonable from Opera in the first place. So to be honest, if we WERE to have been inspired by your marketing - actually, we are - if we WERE to have ripped off your web design, it would have been only fair considering how much you have piggybacked on our innovation. But we haven't ripped you off, and so the accusations make it clear to everyone - that much I can see from these comments - what is actually going on.

It basically makes you look quite silly. And I'm sure you're an intelligent guy, so that's unfortunate. But really man, it's time to grow up now? People are dying of hunger around the world, the polar caps are melting, governments around the world are on the brink of introducing police states in the fight against terrorism - and here we are - with our heads up our arses - crying that someone's webdesign looks an itsy-bitsy bit like yours? It's about time you widen your perspective just a little bit. The world doesn't have time for more conflicts and hostilities. Why don't you, Asa, start your fight for a better world by letting go of your resentment against my employer so that we can all move on with our lives and do something constructive with our time.

Now go hug a redwood tree or something.

If the truth hurts, does that make it trolling?

Besides, Asa works for Mozilla. What do you want him to say, that the people that sign his paychecks are making an inferior product? That'd be a conflict of interests. If you want the "unbiased" "truth", then go read a bunch of news sites, not the blogs of the people that make the products!

If you consider Asa a troll, then stop feeding the troll!

@Eivind Skjellum
Eivind, I made the original post that Asa links to. I didn't use the words "RIP OFF" however, what amazed me is that in this "browser industry" there are 3 major players, and even friends of yours pointed out "there were similarities to the Firefox download page". Others have the same right to point out the same thing.
In this whole thread, there is a lot of childish clap trap, but one poster hits the nail on the head

When you look at the complete pages it becomes far more obvious. Open both of these in tabs and flick between them:

http://en-us.www.mozilla.com/
http://www.opera.com/

Horizontal page split? Check.
Blue on top/grey on bottom color scheme? Check.
Computer display in perspective displaying browser image? Check.
Computer display in perspective image overlapping horizontal blue/grey split? Check.
Circular background watermark behind computer display image? Check.
Rounded green download box? Check.
Red/orange title text with monochrome version number? Check.

I call it "download page design by numbers" and am disappointed that Opera and it's designers would be satisfied with the "similarities"

This is not about browser wars, it's about "similarities"

And if it did, if I were Asa, I would have considered it a compliment. But from the little I know of this gentleman's past comments, his glass is always half-empty.

In fact, Asa wrote: "Nice to see Opera yet again following Firefox's lead."
Looks like you agree.

Mozilla does marketing better, Opera does technology better.

Which technology are you speaking of? Does Opera have anything comparable to XUL?

Quote me:

> "He said Opera web developers, not Opera developers."

Quote Chris:

> "Not at the time I posted, he didn't."

Quote Asa:

> "Chris, not true. The title was not changed after your initial post."

Ouch!

Asa,

on most occasions, I wonder why you even let Opera fanboys post here.
This time, I wonder if you actually enjoy doing so.

So what if the *website* designs are similar?

Sorry, This is so trivial.
Can't side with you for making a mountain out of a molehill.

"It basically makes you look quite silly. And I'm sure you're an intelligent guy, so that's unfortunate. But really man, it's time to grow up now? People are dying of hunger around the world, the polar caps are melting, governments around the world are on the brink of introducing police states in the fight against terrorism - and here we are - with our heads up our arses - crying that someone's webdesign looks an itsy-bitsy bit like yours? It's about time you widen your perspective just a little bit. The world doesn't have time for more conflicts and hostilities. Why don't you, Asa, start your fight for a better world by letting go of your resentment against my employer so that we can all move on with our lives and do something constructive with our time."

Hey, Mr web-desginer... why are you designing websites and posting here instead of fighting against pollution or feeding children in third world countries?? What a demagogue. And You say the world doesn't have time for itsy-bitsy arguments - jsut after you wrote 4 paragraphs of it. You are as coherent as original at design.

wow.. do i since some sarcasm going around.. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

*No idea is original*

woot, more drama.. can't wait to see all of the rabid fanboy and fangirl of Opera pour in here :D :D

PandaRojo, on the 11th of September, I was part of launching what we consider the most potent peace organization in Norway - Peace Point. In two days, I will go public as the leader of Peace Point Youth Council in a ceremony attended by select press, a former US ambassador, friends, family and any others who are interested. I will be leading this together with an amazing lady who is now about to travel the world to get youth from conflict-ridden areas to do art together. The result will be exhibited in the Nobel Peace Center in Oslo summer 2008 and will then tour the world. I will hold the fort in Norway while she's travelling, trying to work with the youth to realize their potential by making them confident enough to face up to the difficulties of being a human being, thus opening up the space in which true transformation can happen.

Not that it matters in this blog. It matters to the world though. So I'm doing my best. I'm sorry it's not good enough for you.

be well

Surrrre... Opera "steals".... Does SeaMonkey "steal" too?

Where did Opera "steal" the perfect in-line spell-checking integration with Aspell on both Linux and Windows? And voice browsing and speech capabilities on Windows? Where did it "steal" Widgets? Where did it steal right-click access to ad-blocking configuration for each page visited? Where did it steal it's speed and its Mail Client that is 10 times lighter and less crashy that T-Bird?

Oh, I know, they must have peeked into your back-pack and found all that burried under your Star Wars collectible cards.

> Horizontal page split? Check.
> Blue on top/grey on bottom color scheme? Check.

Both "Web 2.0" effects.

> Computer display in perspective displaying browser image? Check.

And below, pictures of Opera on mobile phones and devices. Wow, how obscure.

Anyway, Opera did this ages ago.

> Red/orange title text with monochrome version number? Check.

Opera has used red and black text for their products for ages. It beat Mozilla to that, I'm sorry to tell you. The green download button has been there for ages too.

> However, the claims Asa makes are factual. Everything he
> says has happened.

No.

By the way, I'm a Mozilla user, and I think Asa is a disgrace to the Mozilla Corporation.

really...they're not that much the same. calm yourself down. i'm going to have to agree with bennie on this too, i also think asa, you are a firefox extremist and deserve to give others some slack.

Eivind,

Wow, you really come off as a pathetic individual. The truth must really hurt to prompt such a long-winded cry-baby response.

Biff: You come of as a brainwashed Zombie... Really think for yourself for a second. Don't just resycle what other sais..

Think of it this way Asa: If you were a "world leader", you would have been the cause of a war...., but thankfully, you are not.
Firefox, Opera, and SeaMonkey are the best browsers available today.
Opera has a different approach and a totally different user interface for configurations.
Nobody is copying from anyone.
Everyone is learning from everyone..., with the possible exception of your beloved IE.
I use and test everyone version of Firefox. Ditto for Opera. I do some work for SeaMonkey and test all versions of it. With the exclusion of Windows versions of all, because I simply do not believe in supporting a criminal monopolist by using Windows. All these browsers have their own "personality". Just as you have your own.

BTW, just to make sure your site is compliant, I used Opera to post this message.

Mr Skjellum,

You missed the point. No-one came here to discuss world affairs, nor personal merits - which I don't doubt and praise you for your kind actions. The reference to those matters is off-topic and demagogic in a post about web design. As you said, it doesn't matters for this blog, which of course doesn't mean you must be a kind person in much more important affairs in your life - of which I don't know anything and never questioned altogether.

Hope you understand I was simply giving my opinion about the original subject and not about anything else,

Best wishes.

I have to say that after reading all this ranting about "Firefox stealing Opera features" or "Opera stealing Firefox features", that there are a lot of people who have a hard time dealing with basic logic here.

For a start, both Opera, Firefox are web browsers, which means they serve the same purpose, for the same reason, using the same technology. How can you NOT expect parallels to appear in the packages? People often want the same or similar features, so its up to Opera or Firefox to implement them.

Whenever someone cries foul about something mundane like an inline spell checker being implemented, I have to point out that users wanted it from both camps, it never is an option to sit on your arse and expect users to keep coming if you don't give them the features they want.

So to all the Opera and Firefox fanboys out there who spend 80 hours of the week writing pathetic rants about pathetic and irrelevant things, stop wasing your bloody time. The only time you'll have something real to rant about would be if Opera took a piece of technology from Mozilla like its rendering engine and refused to release it under the correct license, or if Mozilla took Operas rendering engine and released it as Open source. Only then would I not feel the urge to bash your face in with your own bloody computer.

And to Asa, I don't know what you get out of this crap, which you always bring up, but I sure as hell hope Mozilla fires you so you'll have something real to complain about.

let's see:
Opera:
*tabs years before firefox existed
*draggable tabs years before Firefox knew what dragging was
*"clear private data" feature so clearly ripped straight from Opera
*resumable sessions loading up at startup in firefox 2.0 a clear rip-off from Opera's years-old capabilities
*superior caching and instant forward/back (firefox not there despite new feature hype)

I can go on and on and on...
Who is copying who?

Asa... *shakes head* Firefox can live on its own merits without you bagging the competition. Opera does things differently. Who cares? Opera doesn't enjoy Mozilla's level of success for whatever reason(s). Who cares? Just leave it alone, man. Cheap shots like this... gah. To be greeted with this after not reading your blog for weeks...

I honestly don't know why you do it. Think about why you're doing this, man. Who are you helping? Your cause? Theirs? Anyone? Bueller?

I have this filed under "cheap shots".

Pandarojo got owned. Your back-peddled redirection of the argument still didn't put you back in the drivers seat on that one. That was super-funny.

These slashdot comments were pretty interesting to read...
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/07/0322204

Dao-
it's funny you bring up XUL. I thought Firefox was supposed to be a "lean mean browsing machine" I've used Opera since version 6 (yes, I was happy to pay for it), and all I heard from from everyone was how Opera was "too much," and a "kitchen-sink" application that was bloated and loaded with too much. It's funny now that FF is gradually going from "lean" and "bare-bones" to include more and more features. Now the bragging rights seem to be about it being a platform (that nobody is using) and Open-source (which nobody is branching). "But XUL makes it much more than just a browser! It's a platform!" Uhh ok. So at least we've gotten away from the "opera is bloat, FF is lean" arguments since those don't hold water any more. Seems like now all that's left is to criticise some minor, superficial, meaningless aspect of Opera... Oh look! Opera's splash page! There's a good place to start.

Kelson for president

Now the bragging rights seem to be about it being a platform (that nobody is using) and Open-source (which nobody is branching).

I don't think so.
By the way, this has nothing to do with feature bloat. You're mixing things up.

I'm the only one mixing things up around here? I don't see people putting "download XUL" or "Gecko rocks" on their webpage. It's Firefox. A web browser. What is it that you're so proud of? A platform or a browser? If it's gecko and all the developer based mumbo-jumbo, that's fine. Develop skipstone, sleipner, Dr. Orca, Songbird, Openberg etc. I just want a browser that meets all my needs. Just stop shifting around your praises so willy-nilly. You can't praise FF the browser and then direct that to XUL/Gecko/etc... What happened to FF? Isn't that any good anymore?

Anyway-What does "this" have to do with? Opera "stealing" from Firefox? lol.... a splash page. Cute! Nice job Asa.

I don't see people putting "download XUL" or "Gecko rocks" on their webpage. It's Firefox. A web browser.

Fair enough on your points. I don't agree that Opera isn't capable of rendering sites with decent performance... but that's not going to get us anywhere.

Anyway, let's all get back on topic of Opera's splash page as if that has anything to do with either browser.

I don't agree that Opera isn't capable of rendering sites with decent performance...

That was just a typo. I know that Opera is pretty fast in general, but it's painfully slow on my personal site.

gotcha.

I would have said "opera does innovating better." instead of technology. But even still, what's wrong with Opera's "under the hood" technology. As far as I know (which isn't very far at all), it's the same rendering engine for the desktop that is used in the Opera mobile... both are lightweight, small downloads. In the case of Opera mobile, that's not a good piece of technology? The download size of Opera with all that it includes is not good technology? Ok- so it's not capable of as broad use as gecko and whatever is uder the hood with mozilla.. but it certainly does meet the needs of what Opera is try8ing to do.

Even still, what about Opera on devices. We need not look too further beyond Nintendo's latest offerings on the DS and Wii to see that it's capable of doing things in devices as well.

Just because Opera is different technology... that doesn't mean it's not good technology. Anyway, "better" at marketing, better at techology.. it's all subjective anyway. Like I said the first time... just use what works best for you.

Heh, Opera is way faster than Firefox. Did y'all see the vid on digg the other day which confirmed that? :)

Helen said it well:
http://wow-factor.com/index.php/browser_page_similarities#c903

We swedes have a lot of norwegian-jokes and of course they have the same ones, nationalities reversed. This strategically dumb move may prove that we swedes use the right version. =)

Asa, stupid person. Haven't you anything better to do that spread lies?

"Haven't you anything better to do that spread lies?".

Mozilla paids him for that, it's his job and he tries to do his best.

Reminder to all: the good ol' days are gone, Mozilla is a corporation now and if it wants to play on the big league it must spread FUD and do crappy stuff (just like any other corporation). Asa just happens to be the guy who has to do the dirty job, it's not really his fault; he would prefer to be involded in core development but unfortunately his skills are not up to par. Don't blame him, he is just another victim of the corporate world.

Now, get over it and the next time he posts another flamebait, take a deep breath and repeat: "Asa is a good and classy guy but Mozilla.corp forces him to do this kind of stuff".

I think I understand why Asa does what he does. After stealling most of the nice Opera features, Asa's conciousness could not take any of the constant "Firefox stole from Opera" arguments. So he does what he gets from Opera fans, accuse Opera of stealing even if in his case the evidence is s a triffle bit vague.

Green buttons for download are spread around the web and Opera has had that button for ages. The red and Black Opera9 logo has been the obcious colour scheme if you do not understand why look at the Opera's logo.

I can bet a thousand dollars that nearly all Firefox developers have used Opera. Asa admits to loving the browser in the past. Slowly they encorporated all of Opera feature into Firefox to get the feel of the browser they so much admire. The only techy superiority that FF claims - XUL, is what makes that browser so horribly slow and unresponsive after some 10 tabs and 20 minutes of browsing. On second thought the browser is slow anyway, but after you get those extensions you notice the unresponsive interface all the more. I degressed so back to the point. FF developers steal from Opera KNOWINGLY, Opera web desginer was influnced from FF web page UNKOWINGLY.

The very second I saw Opera's new layout I knew you would not resist trolling about it.

Yes, background split and green button on opera.com is a tribute to Firefox's superiority!

Grow up!

FUD is no fun. And this fight between Opera fanboys and Firefox fanboys isn't doing anyone any good.
I myself am a proud Opera user and promote Opera. I used to be a fanboy but I'm not any more.
I'm on both sides and I really think others should be too. Opera and Mozilla are really on the same team. Bringing the web to it's full potential.

This badtalking of Opera really don't lead to anything good. And I don't see why It's necessary. Firefox has more users. The focus should really be on making users switch from Internet Explorer.

Let's join forces and take back the web! I myself promote both Firefox and Opera when encouraging people to switch. What they choose should really be their own decision.