Border around the Go button is a lighter shade of gray than the outline around the rest of the location bar. Same problem with the search bar around both the search-go and the engine dropdown.
Hover effects on the Go button, location bar dropdown, Search-go, and Search engine dropdown are too subtle.
The Search-go button's icon is still too washed out--it looks disabled (the hover state should be the default state).
Folder icons in bookmarks have too much "bling." It almost doesn't look like a folder. Why is the outside of the folder so non-uniform in color? Is it supposed to look shiny? Who uses shiny file folders? Why is the inside of the folder white and the outside blue? All the physical file folders I own are a similar color inside and out.
The list-all-tabs dropdown still still doesn't convey any obvious meaning. When you hover over it, it now connects to the tab-bar's rebar, but it's stark white instead of similarly colored to the tabs. It should probably stay connected to the tab-bar's rebar even when not hovered. I think it needs some kind of icon, but it's hard to translate the concept into a simple icon. Stack of folders? Rolodex? It's definitely a tough one. Maybe the better visual connection to the tab bar is all it really needs.
When maximized, the left-most tab isn't against the screen edge. Fitt's law problem, if that's desired.
All in all, good work addressing many user comments.
I think it everything looks wonderful except for the Home icon because it looks like it's muddy/dirty. Personally, I like the 2D home icons like the ones that have been in Pinstripe for so long because it actually looks like a house. In my opinion, the home icon in 1.5 looks like a dog house more than anything.
I echo Josh and Mark's continuing beefs on bug 348750. The shrinkwrap effect on hover for the back/forward buttons still looks totally gross. Close buttons on the right still driving me absolutely nuts.
I think the tabs look good. I guess it's hard to differentiate the different tab effects when only using various shades of grey. But I think you did a pretty good job. The buttons look brighter. I'm not sure I like the brown house. It doesn't go with the other button colors. I like the hover effect over the buttons. I agree with Greg's comments about the go button, etc. The hover effect is not dramatic enough. At least you are making progress. Hopefully it will continue to evolve.
Funnily enough, I was just looking for a place to comment on this. Thanks Asa. :)
Observations on Win XP:
Overall - improved, definitely.
The Fwd/Back buttons are much better - but there's still a little bit of strange behavior on when the separator/dropdown line appears. I think the shine/gradient could still be toned-down when the buttons are not active.
Home icon is better, but still seems too detailed (and the face-on, flatness just seems strange still). But it's a marked improvement, no doubt.
Tabs - much better on the coloring! Yay!
Greg nailed a lot of issues I might not have caught on my own. Nice eye for detail there, and I agree with his comments.
The previous dropdown for the address bar (before the Go button) has a lot more silver than the rest of the bar and buttons. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
Buttons on the toolbar all have nice large 'hit' areas that are clearly outlined and well-colored on hover. I like it!
Overall, again, I'm very happy to see the improvements. I'd say it's now at the "acceptable" stage, though I'd definitely like to see continued tweaks/improvements. Thanks to everybody working their butts off on this!
On a weird sidenote, the items on the status bar keep appearing and disappearing with the nightlies...
The main tool bar icons received much deserved love by the skinner, good.
But...
Some buttons shows a lack of care: the new folder icon in the bookmark manager window is a good example.
I pretty much dislike blue folders. It also makes me wonder about what is Mozilla thinking with this project: are you trying to break as many UI/OS convention/standards as you can possibly can?!
Yellow == traditionally the folders color (which current bookmark folders are by all means, i.e. it's not live bookmark folders getting online data, or metadata based folder display, etc.). Why?! What's the point in trying to make the transition to Firefox more difficult?!
There seems to be a clear rift in the way Mozilla sees the official Firefox theme, trying to match as much as possible a forthcoming OS from Microsoft... It might be a good marketing move, but then it might be worth branching Winstripe theme and create a Gnustripe theme to re harmonize your application with the Linux platform ... I'm shivering when I see these kind of 'bugs' being 'resolved' with the new theme:
#351195 [Firefox:Toolbars]-Address bar should be non-native on Linux
I said it before and I'll say it again: the home icon needs to have yellow in it. Green, blue, red, yellow. Not green, blue, red, red-brown.
I still say the 1.x icons showed excellent design sense while the 2.0 icons look like they were changed just for the sake of change and not in the interest of usability/aesthetics. There *really* is no need for a change yet. People are still on XP and most of them will still be on XP when Firefox 3 is released, so why is effort being put into making the theme look *less* XP-like? The icons and tab bar look really out-of-place among the rest of the XP interface, and it isn't any better than Firefox 1.x in terms of usability.
It doesn't work. Sorry, I think Firefox is an excellent product overall, but this theme in the most common conditions just doesn't work. And I'm afraid it's getting too close to the final release for this theme to turn around into something better than the 1.x theme was. To me, it just went in the opposite direction it should have.
OK, here are my thoughts on this take. Generally, better, however:
* The Refresh icon now looks slightly out of place with the back/forward buttons. I attribute this to the gloss shine that you guys are trying to do.
* Small icons are still horrible. Strange things happen, for example, the back/forward gloss shine is on a different side to every other icon.
* The home button, I agree with the above, looks dirty.
* Why blue folders? That was a terrible decision, and what is up with the dark on one side/light on the other? Back to the standard brown folders. It doesn't look native at all.
* Tabs are definately better. Still would prefer native tabs though.
* Text-box cap buttons (Go, Search) outlines are super-faint. Last ones were fine.
* Search Engine button style in last theme was fine too, looks kind of ugly now.
The Go and Search buttons have matching heights to their input fields for the first time for me (XP classic), thats an improvement.
The URL bar drop down looks a bit strange, as its the only button with that design at all. Not even the search bar drop down shares its design. Hopefully the color is not final yet.
The blue folder icon - thats a mistake, isn't it? Someone who's color-blind accidentally picked the wrong color, right? Somewhere in the build process the color got accidentally inverted, or? PLEASE?
The other new icons are ok.
I've been reading through theme bugs and noticed one thing: Often, theme improvements are demonstrated with screen shots, but mostly with XP Luna-only. And often the checked-in theme change does look noticeably different (and wrong) on other platforms or themes, resulting new bugs and fix-ups. Bug 347616 (URL bar drop down update) is an example: Checked-in as soon as Luna was looking fine, but broke almost everything else. I think it would be better to do tests on all major themes before checking such things in.
Much much better. I still have a things to comment on.
MAJOR PROBLEM:
putting the search bar on the navigation toolbar. a better explanation would be to put the objects in this order (left to right): menu stuff, flexible space, search bar, then activity indicator
MY MINOR PROBLEMS:
-The opacity on the inactive tabs is a little too much i think
-there should be an option for the go button...instead of being attached
-love the rss icon in the address bar when hover over it
-the buttons back/forward/reload/stop buttons seem a tad bit too dark
-the search button (magnifying glass) is a little pale
-border around the buttons
Much much better. I still have a things to comment on.
MAJOR PROBLEM:
putting the search bar on the navigation toolbar. a better explanation would be to put the objects in this order (left to right): menu stuff, flexible space, search bar, then activity indicator
MY MINOR PROBLEMS:
-The opacity on the inactive tabs is a little too much i think
-there should be an option for the go button...instead of being attached
-the buttons back/forward/reload/stop buttons seem a tad bit too dark
-the search button (magnifying glass) is a little pale
-border around the buttons
Well, the tabs are an improvement, even though they still look strange when you're on a page with a similar background color.
Home button: as previous posts.
Back/Forward buttons hover state: much better!
IMHO the go and search buttons where _much_ better before. Now they are so faint that I hardly see the search glass and the search bar is missing its left border all together.
And whats up with the blue bookmark folders? e.g. "Who the *#!%%& pimped my Firefox?" (and that not a good thing...)
If they're still there in the final bits I'll just need to go get me another theme, because right now they are constantly screaming for my attention...
I think its a clear improvement. Things I (still) stumbled over:
Win:
- tab bar scroll buttons: coloring of mouse over instance should be adjusted to list all tabs button mouse over instance
- search symbol on search bar end cap isn't visible good enough in comparison to the other active buttons
Mac:
- search bar: notification that the page offers search plug-ins for download is barely visible
- left tab bar scroll button: coloring of its instances should be adjusted to the ones of the right scroll button
- small version back and forward history buttons: they need to be placed one pixel higher to meet the back and forward buttons in mouse over instance
- tab close button: still on the right side instead of on the left
- adress bar buttons: the distance between the small buttons is 13 pixels, between the big version buttons its 10 pixels. The gaps between the small version should be reduced
- the go to button (end cap) on the address bar looks a bit out of place since its the only one of this design now
Nevertheless thanks a lot for all your hard work!!
Dex
(linux)
Looks much better, but the home button still nedded more colors like blue or green. Also the httpS lock symbol is not very clear.
Other minor issues: the blue folders maybe need little enlargement on height, and the text on non-active tabs maybe a bit less darkness.
- Love the new Refresh Button
- Love the new look for the Tabs
- Blue folders look good and fresh
But one of the most thoughful change was the CSS change to smoothen the Address Bar border in Windows Classic so that it plays well with the Go button and the rest of the theme. I use Win2000 Professional in my office and now everything seems to be great.
I have not seen, but I guess major changes have been made on Mac too.
Negatives:
- Just the Home button. It sure deserves to change.
To tell you the truth, I see no difference in the poor quality of the toolbar icons. Most icons are unchanged, a few have a different drawing like Reload, Home and History (none of them are improvements IMHO), but style and contrast are poor and unchanged.
So I'm a bit surprised to read all those positive comments. But if the Firefox users are happy, I'm happy. I just go on using my own theme :).
Icons state should be inverted so the more contrast icon is normally shown while dimmed icon is showed on hover.
i like the new home icon but not in this brown colour, try again, i think that white with roof and door brown could be ok :)
i like the new refresh icon.
turn back bookmarks folder to yellowish.
i have read on bugzilla that the background tabs will have hovered state as default, making them too much similar to selected tabs, don't do that!
scroll and all tabs buttons should definetely connect to whitestrip, they are floating around, and a pixel padding should disconnect them from the tabs.
A lot better ... than the previous state of the theme.
I still think this is a step back from the 1.5 theme, though.
A few things:
o New reload icon looks great!
o Home icon colors should be tweaked (as mentioned above).
o Icons are still too faded when not hovered over. ("Don't click me.") Just use the current 'hovered' icons.
o I like the idea behind the new tab bar, but it looks dark and out of place, at least on my WinXP/Silver color scheme.
Some improvements alright like the refresh icon though I would like to point out some things like some of the others above
* Home icon still needs to worked on.
* Blue bookmark folders look just plain wrong, XP uses yellow folders and so does Vista.
* The mouse-over/highlight action of icons looks odd to me.
This is so much better!
Biggest complaint I have is the "Home" icon, like a lot of other people.
I don't mind the folder icons being blue so much, but I think they could look better. It took me a second to realize they were supposed to be folders...
I have to say, the revised tabs look pretty nice on both Windows and Linux (GNOME). However, I still have a major problem with the icon set. Compared to the Fx 1.5 icon set, they are more complex, less bright/colourful/saturated, more difficult to immediately understand, and are nearly unmemorable.
Blue folders? Brown house? A fading refresh icon when no other icon fades in any direction? The washed out colours? The gloss effect just does *not* seem to be working (although I've not seen it on Vista). I imagine the first thing I'll do after installing Fx 2.0 is install the Winstripe theme.
Like others, I too fear that time is running out to turn this theme around such that it possess the character and visual distinction of Winstripe.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8.1b2) Gecko/20060912 BonEcho/2.0b2 on Windows 2000
Overall, definitely better:
Reload, Back and Forward and History are nice. Especially Reload: that is a refresh! The tabs look better under Win2000 now. Nice job!
But still not perfect. What I still do NOT like:
* Home - while it is better than the despicable one on Beta2 it is still somehow dark and dreary. As someone has already mentioned the yellow color is missing from the core Icon set. A yellow roof, or door would lighten up the whole theme immensely. Please, do not leave it like that!!!
* Go and search Icons still not removable from the respective bar. I do not need them, they look nice, but should be removable. Please.
* The Padlock with the "under construction" band. Both in the address bar and the options menu. It does not look right. The 1.5 one was so much slicker.
* The Privacy Icon in Options - it is unintelligible! Looks like a twisted gray padlock with something red in front of it. What is it?
* Tabs and Advanced icons in Options - both are neither slick, nor elegant. Somehow clumsy.
* I do not see any blue folders in the build I am using (probably changed already), but if I have just missed them, I simply want to say that I do not like blue folders.
Thanks for listening and please keep up the good work. The theme is so important! Looking forward to the new improvements before 2.0 final.
Good points:
The reload button is much nicer, and the tabs -- which I thought were the best feature of the previous revision -- have been improved further. The spacing between buttons feels right. Text buttons and extensions without mouse-over images look better now that the borders has been restored to the hover state of the toolbar buttons.
Bad points:
The scroll-buttons on the tab overflow are far, far too pale, as are the borders around the Go, Search and Search Engine buttons (these borders don't match those of the location bar or search field, so I'm sure more work will be done). The folder icons look a bit messy - again, they lack definition, and there's an ugly dark blue smudge that I guess is supposed to indicate shineyness, but fails. The Home button is /better/, but now it looks muddy.
Conclusion:
It's still very easy to pick holes in, but I can now use the theme without constantly seeking a replacement. With a few more tweaks, it'll be a matter of taste between the subdued look of Firefox 2 and the vibrant, crisp look of 1.5. The older theme fits better with XP's Luna styling and bright primary colours motif, so if evaluated from an OS Integration point of view the new theme is a step backwards on Windows. I think that angle can be downplayed, however, as the XP look itself is beginning to look tired and was always a source of ridicule. It's important that Firefox isn't seen to stagnate, so sometimes a change of direction is as good as a step forwards.
My 2 cents:
Generally better than Beta2
but
- Home icon still needs work, it is dirty and brown, come on!
- Greens and blues can be a bit more saturated on unhovered state
- I don't like the blue folders, maybe it would be better if it's cleaned up a little.
* Tab bar too high. Tab bar is now almost same height as main toolbar.
* Tabs look great, but... But Windows's ones are any time better. There should be some kind of bolder border or somethings that make them look more modern. Like the new toolbar is -- Has gradient macish background, glossiness and so on. Maybe making them lower and replacing font is already a solution. New close button is good.
* Icon sizes. Main toolbar is so low now. New icon sizes was a mistake in my opinion. To be honest the Mac's UI is still a clean, big and easy to read and follow thing. Big icons are very mac like and much more beautiful. Safari and Mail are different. They have bubble-like icons which are other topic. Standard size icons would be great
* Preferences. If we look any other application's prefs and compare it with Firefox's we see a huge differents between fonts, buttons and margins-paddings. There is too much clean space and fonts are too large and so on. Safari-s prefs are one of the best one i think. The pref window is also too wide. Icon bar has way too mach free space. In addition tabs in Advanced panel look horrible, very old and ugly in my opinion. (Jaguar? Cheetah?)
By the way, old icons are back in prefs. Some of them ugly and strange.
* As well as other dialogs. Download window, Updating window, search engines dropdown etc. All these little things need a little work i think. Safari agian is a great example of perfect UI. I mean fonts, their sizes and alignment, as well as margins etc. Small things, but fixing these will make FF really perfect.
* Cursors. What's the deal with loading cursor on FF?
it is not entirely a theme issue, but still has to do much with it.
why are the icons on the "find as you type" bar missing? now it is impossible to intuitively go to the previous or next entry of the searched term, or close the bar. it is a huge step back in usability for me, and i suppose quite a few other people.
The Mac Theme has come a long way, but I would like to see more 3D effects on the buttons and give the history icon, and the Print Icon MORE Color, they are washed out...Like the gradient in the Tab Bar, Keep Up the Great Work!
- Still looks like an ambulance with it's red and blue squares.
- The outer border on the lower half turns darker when the button is hovered over or activated yet the top half, which is supposed to be the "tab", remains grey.
The "home" button (Sept 12 version):
- The new brown roof appears to be thinner nearer the peak then at the edges. I preferred the Sept. 11th version with the white roof.
To second a comment above, the URL dropdown looks strange in Windows 2000 or XP classic mode. Everything else is toolbar gray, but there it sits all shiny and new!
Also, the magnifying glass beside the search bar is very hard to see. I'd just as soon see it gone, but if it's going to be there, it should have more contrast with the background of the toolbar.
The "Go" and search (magnifying glass) icons looks much
better integrated. But I *still* want to be able to remove
them!
The "reload" button looks all washed out and horrible.
In comparison the [SSL] padlock graphic is AWFUL - looks
really dirty due to the detail and that horrid stripe. Go back
to the 1.5 one - really clear and simple and OBVIOUSLY a
padlock.
The "list all tabs" drop down did a weird sort of "brown glow"
when I first opened up several tabs. Reminded me of
something else brown...
Speaking of which, the theme IS getting better, but I can't
help but feel you're just trying to "polish shit." The amount
of time and money being spent (wasted) on this....
I'll reserve judgement 'til 2.0 Final, but right now 1.5 is still
much better. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
- home icon should have white walls (or lighter brownish)
- all tabs button is too dark, it feels like disabled
- hover state on go, search, engine is not clear
Hi,
the Mac theme - some small improvements, but is still a disaster.
The new Home button has now the right color for the whole theme - looks like a piece of shit ;-)
Why is it not impossible to create a Navigation Toolbar background, a Bookmarks Toolbar background and tabs in a concerted style - and for the extention toolbars naturally as well
Holy shit, they work some months on it and have still nothing.
The icons must be tuned on it - on what?
I can`t believe it - dilettantes
by the way, it`s a theme created without any "love"
Almost every single one of my comments [1] from last time you asked still stands. These are the most important of my previous comments that need to be addressed:
* The Go and Search buttons *must* be separated from the location and search bars, so that I can get rid of the useless things.
* The Quick Find bar needs to have at the Next, Previous, Highlight and Match Case options, like the ordinary find bar does.
* I want to be able to turn off the close buttons on the tabs because I don't need them. I prefer middle clicking.
* When there's only one tab open and the tab bar is visible, closing it should navigate to about:blank and still allow me to return using Back, instead of having to go to the History menu.
The look of the icons have improved slightly, but I still prefer those from 1.5.
I have to strongly second Lachlan's complaint about the Quick Find bar, though I'm not sure how much of a "theme" issue this is: I cannot see ANY reason for the new behavior of completely disallowing "Find Next" without switching to Full Find. Yes, I understand removing the icons (not sure whether I agree, but I don't think that matters now).
C'mon, if I know enough to have turned on FAYT, then press "Ctrl+F" if I want a full Find, wouldn't I likely know that F3 means "Next"? And wouldn't I do a Quick Find, then try pressing F3 directly (since I don't look at the bar anyways, just at the results)? So why doesn't that work? I can't see the reason for disabling it!
Anyways, I also want to explicitly agree with the critiques on the blue folders (especially with the dark / light elliptical weirdness), the padlock (really not as meaningful or clear as the 1.5 version), and the strange padlock for "Options | Privacy" (what the heck happened to that thing?!).
The theme is progressing well, so I'm looking forward to these remaining things getting sorted out. Plus getting the icons in the status bar back. ;)
I consider it a small improvement over beta2. There were some improvements (tabs look better; cleaned up the List All Tabs button; normal button borders have been restored and the weird back/forward hover effect is gone) and a few things that look worse (I don't like the new refresh icon; the ugly white house is now a dirty brown shack).
My biggest beef hasn't been fixed: the washed out, faded default icons. Fixing that one thing would make the new theme look so much better. If that gets fixed I can live with it. I may not be crazy about it, but at least it won't be so drab that I have to reinstall the old Winstripe theme.
Other minor quibbles:
I think I finally figured out the Privacy icon. It appears to be one of those "do not disturb" signs you hang on the door knob of your hotel room door. It is not obvious though, and I think others will make the same mistake I did and think it is a lock drawn by a really crappy artist. Needs work.
Please keep the yellow folders. I know some people think the blue folders look cool. But the theme is already loaded with blue colored icons. Yellow adds a little more variety in the color scheme.
In the latest build (12/9) I see some more improvements. Small icons look better (the back/forward buttons look like they are horizontally squashed though). Though, I must say, after looking at the reload button, it looks like it is in a different style to the rest of the buttons. It's likely because the "gloss" that you are attempt rolls around similar to the shape of the button, and you can't tell. It looks very much like the old style, but improved.
Further, the search engine button still needs to be reverted. It is too out of place, and the indicator of a websites engine is way to faint.
By the way, is the planned use of a search engine without installing it still going to happen?
This theme update is much nicer in classic theme with Windows XP! I did whine about that a bit (a few of my bugs have been fixed).
The buttons on the navigation toolbar could still do with a bevel effect on hover IMHO. According to the notes on the changes they're supposed to 'glow' on hover but there isn't a glow for me, only a slight opacity change of the icon on the button.
Definitive improvement from Beta 2. I just hope that Go button will be separated, as current state somehow just looks wrong to me. Other than that - a wast improvement in a short time.
I don't think that the previous home icon looked as if it were disabled. The problem was rather that the difference between the normal and hover states were barely visible. But now that's not a problem any more as the buttons have native borders. There are also some other white toolbar buttons in the theme (but not shown by default), I don't think that this is a problem.
The Go ans Search buttons blend in well with the native theme, but I think they're a bit too transparent, they're barely visible apart from the icons and borders. It would be nice to make them more like the location bar dropdown (but still transparent). The Go button should also blend in with the location bar drop down.
The Search engine dropdown lost its border on the left on Windows.
The tab bar is nice, except that the selected tab looks like as it were a pixel lower than the non-active tabs (this is just an illusion, but it does look like that).
The New Tab and New Window buttons on the toolbar should be aligned with the bottom of the other buttons and not the top (one pixel lower).
Preference Privacy Icon - As others say this is non-obvious - I'd suggest an icon of a door - closed maybe or 1/2 closed - perhaps with the Red Do Not enter sign on it.
It seems that they've made a lot of progress making the new theme (in the toolbar, at least) more like the existing theme. The buttons are actually usable now. Which is good. But it makes me wonder why in the world they're doing anything at all to those buttons. Why fix what ain't broken? And what is wrong with having the "go" and "search" buttons separate from the addressbar and search bar? What is remedied by not making them removable?
Fix what *is* broken. The tab bar could definitely use some UI love, but this latest version seems to be a step backward. The out-of-focus tabs still look "disabled" They are the same hue as the background of the tab bar, so they look see-through. The side buttons for tab overflow don't even seem to have a "pressed" state.
So, don't fix what ain't broken, and don't break worse what's already broken. Seems like a good code to live by.
I guess I just don't see the logic of change for change's sake, which seems to be the raison d'etre for most of this UI "improvement".
Personally, I love it. I *was* going to wait until a couple days after the lockdown for RC1 to update, but I just couldn't stand the beta2 toolbars--that extra padding really makes a difference!
hello Asa,
well, again, this is not a fully theme problem, but the issue that Stankov, Lachlan Hunt And Step mentioned, about the lack of buttons in the "Find as you type" toolbar, is a major problem that hurts this wonderful feature of firefox. it is a useful feature, that was very easy to use, but since not many people bother to learn keyboard shortcuts, removing the buttons on the first FFYT run is just wrong in my view.
i also agree with the issues about the go button (green arrow) which is part of the address bar, and not a separated one, and the magnifying glass of the search bar, which is almost the same color as the background.
the fix done to the hover over tabs was one step 2 far in my opinion - first u could barely notice the color change when hover above the tabs. now, it is the exact same colors as the selected tab. it should b somewhere in the middle.
another thing about tabs is the arrow that suppose to show u that u have more tabs 2 the right. it is barely noticable, and should have some "popup" color effect, so u can actually see that u have more tabs hidden from view.
but it seems no1 is really handling it. clearing cache is not just a privacy issue, it is a tool which people sometimes use to fix problem while surfing. so it simply wrong to have this buried under almsot 10 steps. even if not many people use it (which i doubt, because it is pretty useful, especially when giving technical support), it is illogical to have it the way it is now, when the cache options has just the memory size box, and nothing more.
i hope it will get fix, because ff2 suppose to fight the new ie7.
Doron.
hi again Asa,
a minute after posting my comment here, i installed the latest nightly (20060913), and i saw the buttons are back on the find as you type.
so to whom ever is responsible for it, and actually, all the gr8 ppl at firefox and mozilla - thank you.
Doron.
Doron, regarding the buttons on the Find and Quick Find bars, there is a difference between them. When you press Ctrl+F (or equivalent), you get the regular Find bar which has those buttons. However, when you press slash (/), apostrophe (') or have the "Search for text when I start typing" option enabled, you get the Quick Find bar which does not have the buttons.
Also, I'm aware that it's not specifically a theme related issue, but rather more of a general UI issue that really needs to be fixed. The only difference between the two should be that the Quick Find bar closes as soon as it loses focus and the Find bar remains open until its close button is pressed or the user presses Esc while it has focus.
I mentioned earlier that I understood the reasoning for not having the buttons on the Quick Find Bar. It's pretty well-explained if you read through the bug report, but basically it's to prevent frustration from trying to click the buttons and not being fast enough (the Quick Find isn't meant to keep focus, it's meant to quickly locate something).
I still think the keyboard shortcuts should apply, since it's often the second (not first) incidence of a word on a page I want. The shortcuts are a different case than the buttons, since you don't have the same speed or "race" issue (trying to get to the function before the Quick Find bar hides). Maybe it's an implementation problem, then?
can someone give the number of the bug? I personally think removing the buttons is a huge mistake and a step back in usability. I know quite a few people (not tech savvy) for whom exactly this feature makes the decisive difference to IE. I am afraid we could even lose them. I share the opinion of Lachlan.
The Theme on Win2000:
After using it for a longer time I noticed that the gap above the tabs to the Toolbar is too big, probably 3 or 4 pixels. In other words the Tabbar is too high for the tabs themselves. I would suggest making the tabs 2 pixels higher or the bar itself 2 pixels lower. It looks like a gaping hole.
Mac and Windows: The new home button styling is definitely a move in the right direction... as in the single colour and the "faded" look make it match the main icon set better. However the choice of colour, and the high degree of contrast, make it look like someone's nice white house was spattered with mud. I presume the shading/contrast is supposed to indicate lighting effects, but I don't think it's been applied with much care.
Mac-only:
- The ("large") toolbar icons are unusually small, as are the tab close buttons. Maybe it was meant to be "sleek", but I think it just looks compacted.
- I still think the choice of colours for the Mac version makes it look like a childrens' Christmas theme. Lots of white/light grey with candy-colouring in between. Probably not the best for the default theme. Most of the icon colours aren't too bad (aside from aforementioned house), but the reload button is a gaudy, "plastic" blue. It really feels like it was designed for young kids to play with.
Lachan - you're correct, they do still work. They must have been broken for a few of the nightlies or something, because I tried them more than once. Thanks for letting me know, I'm happy now. ;)
Just my $0.02: the 20060914 build is the best yet. It feels the most "ship-worthy" of any of the new-look/theme builds I've seen. Keep up the hard work. You guys are getting there!
There are times for criticism, and times to congratulate; it seems the later has finally arrived. The latest build of Firefox (20060914 BonEcho/2.0) now offers a pleasant interface to users.
All toolbar controls are now once more blending with your OS colors, and the vision behind buttons attached to text boxes seems to have reached a descent aesthetic state.
I'd still appreciate a re-drawing most of the preference upper icons (the privacy icon is still scaring most people at first sight). But it seems things are back on track.
This theme refresh had to pay an heavy price, that is losing a bit of Firefox's natural integration with OSes. The location bar and search bar are now using customized text box borders and drop down arrow. We'll see how Linux distribution will play with that, aiming for UI unification throughout major application on their platform. A custom gnome theme might emerge from Fedora or Ubuntu.
just fired up 20060914 for Win XP: I agree, it's coming along very nicely!
I'm getting used to the new [Home] icon, though it still seems a little too detailed - maybe because of the color choice?
The [Go] button frame or edge is fine now, and matches the dropdown for the address bar. Great!
The magnifying glass still seems too faded, and it makes the edge/frame also seem lighter (even though it isn't).
IMHO, I liked the tab bar (selected and non-selected tabs, hovers even) from yesterday much better than today's version. On both versions, though, the buttons at the end are too light even when available. I can't tell if I'm at the end of my tabs unless I actually click on the icon (or try and [ctrl] + [pg up/down] until I'm back at the other end.
Anyway, I'd say the theme is now at an acceptable stage for shipment, though I hope there's still a little tweaking to be done. ;) Thanks again for listening, guys, and for striving for such a high standard.
Mac: In general, the new theme is a step back compared to the old; the new theme doesn't integrate well with the OS. For instance, the ordinary size of the toolbar is similar to the standard "small" toolbar size in Mac applications. Also, having the close box to the right on tabs is just wrong if you compare it to every other Mac application featuring tabs.
Please, don't make Firefox feel any less Mac native; it's already used as the main argument against using it on Macs.
I'm really, really wondering why you guys put such great effort in giving FireFox:mac a preferencewindow with a reasonably decent mac feel if youre going to 'piss it all away' with the theme. It's a waste.
I would say drop the red shiny close button on the active tab as it is too distracting for just a close button.Something like this is more clear (maybe make the current red close button bg white and make the x on top black): http://www.aelon.net/graphics/images/ie7_small.png
Lessen the washout on the search icon as well I'd say. Also, the drop down button for the location bar is not transparently done like the tab bar.
The new version is a big improvement. The back and forward arrows are much clearer, and they behave like proper buttons now. Still hoping it will be possible to remove the go buttons.
But you clearly have decided to take the Firefox UI in a totally different direction, breaking away from looking like a native application. In the previous version the (native looking) adress bar totally didn't fit with the attached (non-native looking) go button. The solution to this appears to be making the adress bar non-native too, instead of the other way around.
Personally I think that's a shame. So much apps these days have their own look and feel, making a complete mess of the desktop.
I'll keep checking in to see if it improves but to be honest I don't think it will.
I know I probably sound negative, but it's how I honestly feel about it.
New(er) theme looks great; except, something has gone horribly wrong with the Home button icon. The color (hideous brown/purple) should not exist. Even a slight color shift, away from brown, in the direction of red/purple would be better.
Overall, looks great! Big improvement from 2.0 Beta 2!
The green used for the back and forward buttons is dull and ugly. The reload button is asymmetrical. The Home button is too detailed and doesn't use the warm colors of the old house. On Windows, the buttons look half-disabled until you hover over them. On Mac, where buttons aren't supposed to change on hover, the buttons change on hover.
The best-looking button on my toolbar, by far, is one added by an extension.
I find it hard to believe we're considering shipping Firefox 2 with this theme.
I'm glad to hear my argument from one of original firefox developers: "[...] making the user-interface as native as possible was one of the original goals of the project now known as Firefox."
I agree - the Home icon is just plain dark and ugly. It somehow doesn't work with the other icons. If it were lighter (a lot lighter), it would work a lot better.
The faux-rounded dropdowns, in particular, look entirely out of place on OS X. And is there any chance of having less ugly icons on all platforms? Or a cleaner, more svelte look (a la IE 7), at least on Windows?
I gotta say it's really drab. The gradients everywhere lend the theme a weight that takes away from Fx's simplicity. Not a big fan -- if someone re-skins back to Fx 1.5 I'm certainly going to snag it.
Just tried it and the theme is fine. Buttons smaller on some systems = good. Active tab is much more visible now = good. I would prefer slightly less grayed out arrows, but who cares?
I predict bitter complaints. If you change it back, I predict bitter complaints. Get a life, folks. Although I complained (comment missing in action) about taking development time for fritterware, complaining bitterly about unimportant details an equal drain.
If this comes up again, I do think there may be (and there have always been) some legibility issues, especially if you have an old, fuzzy monitor with only a few pixels. The arrows and the reload button are still too fat and squat. The reload button kind of looks like a sphere with no distinguishing marks. And fat and squat isn't particularly artistic or pleasing, but who cares?
reactions, thoughts, comments, etc.
That home icon still needs to be changed to something else - it still looks bad.
I personally don't see what's wrong with the current 1.5 home icon; compare it to that one - which one looks better?
The rest is great, IMO.
Posted by: Zior | September 11, 2006 5:58 PM
Better.
Observations on WinXP Luna Silver:
Border around the Go button is a lighter shade of gray than the outline around the rest of the location bar. Same problem with the search bar around both the search-go and the engine dropdown.
Hover effects on the Go button, location bar dropdown, Search-go, and Search engine dropdown are too subtle.
The Search-go button's icon is still too washed out--it looks disabled (the hover state should be the default state).
Folder icons in bookmarks have too much "bling." It almost doesn't look like a folder. Why is the outside of the folder so non-uniform in color? Is it supposed to look shiny? Who uses shiny file folders? Why is the inside of the folder white and the outside blue? All the physical file folders I own are a similar color inside and out.
The list-all-tabs dropdown still still doesn't convey any obvious meaning. When you hover over it, it now connects to the tab-bar's rebar, but it's stark white instead of similarly colored to the tabs. It should probably stay connected to the tab-bar's rebar even when not hovered. I think it needs some kind of icon, but it's hard to translate the concept into a simple icon. Stack of folders? Rolodex? It's definitely a tough one. Maybe the better visual connection to the tab bar is all it really needs.
When maximized, the left-most tab isn't against the screen edge. Fitt's law problem, if that's desired.
All in all, good work addressing many user comments.
Posted by: Greg | September 11, 2006 6:03 PM
I think it everything looks wonderful except for the Home icon because it looks like it's muddy/dirty. Personally, I like the 2D home icons like the ones that have been in Pinstripe for so long because it actually looks like a house. In my opinion, the home icon in 1.5 looks like a dog house more than anything.
Posted by: Jon | September 11, 2006 6:04 PM
Well, it's better.
I echo Josh and Mark's continuing beefs on bug 348750. The shrinkwrap effect on hover for the back/forward buttons still looks totally gross. Close buttons on the right still driving me absolutely nuts.
Posted by: Nick Fagerlund | September 11, 2006 6:22 PM
I think the tabs look good. I guess it's hard to differentiate the different tab effects when only using various shades of grey. But I think you did a pretty good job. The buttons look brighter. I'm not sure I like the brown house. It doesn't go with the other button colors. I like the hover effect over the buttons. I agree with Greg's comments about the go button, etc. The hover effect is not dramatic enough. At least you are making progress. Hopefully it will continue to evolve.
Posted by: Dave | September 11, 2006 7:11 PM
Funnily enough, I was just looking for a place to comment on this. Thanks Asa. :)
Observations on Win XP:
Overall - improved, definitely.
The Fwd/Back buttons are much better - but there's still a little bit of strange behavior on when the separator/dropdown line appears. I think the shine/gradient could still be toned-down when the buttons are not active.
Home icon is better, but still seems too detailed (and the face-on, flatness just seems strange still). But it's a marked improvement, no doubt.
Tabs - much better on the coloring! Yay!
Greg nailed a lot of issues I might not have caught on my own. Nice eye for detail there, and I agree with his comments.
The previous dropdown for the address bar (before the Go button) has a lot more silver than the rest of the bar and buttons. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
Buttons on the toolbar all have nice large 'hit' areas that are clearly outlined and well-colored on hover. I like it!
Overall, again, I'm very happy to see the improvements. I'd say it's now at the "acceptable" stage, though I'd definitely like to see continued tweaks/improvements. Thanks to everybody working their butts off on this!
On a weird sidenote, the items on the status bar keep appearing and disappearing with the nightlies...
Posted by: Step | September 11, 2006 7:26 PM
The main tool bar icons received much deserved love by the skinner, good.
But...
Some buttons shows a lack of care: the new folder icon in the bookmark manager window is a good example.
I pretty much dislike blue folders. It also makes me wonder about what is Mozilla thinking with this project: are you trying to break as many UI/OS convention/standards as you can possibly can?!
Yellow == traditionally the folders color (which current bookmark folders are by all means, i.e. it's not live bookmark folders getting online data, or metadata based folder display, etc.). Why?! What's the point in trying to make the transition to Firefox more difficult?!
There seems to be a clear rift in the way Mozilla sees the official Firefox theme, trying to match as much as possible a forthcoming OS from Microsoft... It might be a good marketing move, but then it might be worth branching Winstripe theme and create a Gnustripe theme to re harmonize your application with the Linux platform ... I'm shivering when I see these kind of 'bugs' being 'resolved' with the new theme:
#351195 [Firefox:Toolbars]-Address bar should be non-native on Linux
! ? !
Posted by: Mathieu Pellerin | September 11, 2006 7:28 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: the home icon needs to have yellow in it. Green, blue, red, yellow. Not green, blue, red, red-brown.
I still say the 1.x icons showed excellent design sense while the 2.0 icons look like they were changed just for the sake of change and not in the interest of usability/aesthetics. There *really* is no need for a change yet. People are still on XP and most of them will still be on XP when Firefox 3 is released, so why is effort being put into making the theme look *less* XP-like? The icons and tab bar look really out-of-place among the rest of the XP interface, and it isn't any better than Firefox 1.x in terms of usability.
It doesn't work. Sorry, I think Firefox is an excellent product overall, but this theme in the most common conditions just doesn't work. And I'm afraid it's getting too close to the final release for this theme to turn around into something better than the 1.x theme was. To me, it just went in the opposite direction it should have.
Posted by: David Hammond | September 11, 2006 7:43 PM
OK, here are my thoughts on this take. Generally, better, however:
* The Refresh icon now looks slightly out of place with the back/forward buttons. I attribute this to the gloss shine that you guys are trying to do.
* Small icons are still horrible. Strange things happen, for example, the back/forward gloss shine is on a different side to every other icon.
* The home button, I agree with the above, looks dirty.
* Why blue folders? That was a terrible decision, and what is up with the dark on one side/light on the other? Back to the standard brown folders. It doesn't look native at all.
* Tabs are definately better. Still would prefer native tabs though.
* Text-box cap buttons (Go, Search) outlines are super-faint. Last ones were fine.
* Search Engine button style in last theme was fine too, looks kind of ugly now.
This is using Vista RC1.
Posted by: Daniel | September 11, 2006 7:47 PM
Things are improving, slowly but they are.
The Go and Search buttons have matching heights to their input fields for the first time for me (XP classic), thats an improvement.
The URL bar drop down looks a bit strange, as its the only button with that design at all. Not even the search bar drop down shares its design. Hopefully the color is not final yet.
The blue folder icon - thats a mistake, isn't it? Someone who's color-blind accidentally picked the wrong color, right? Somewhere in the build process the color got accidentally inverted, or? PLEASE?
The other new icons are ok.
I've been reading through theme bugs and noticed one thing: Often, theme improvements are demonstrated with screen shots, but mostly with XP Luna-only. And often the checked-in theme change does look noticeably different (and wrong) on other platforms or themes, resulting new bugs and fix-ups. Bug 347616 (URL bar drop down update) is an example: Checked-in as soon as Luna was looking fine, but broke almost everything else. I think it would be better to do tests on all major themes before checking such things in.
Posted by: Udo - | September 11, 2006 8:46 PM
Much much better. I still have a things to comment on.
MAJOR PROBLEM:
putting the search bar on the navigation toolbar. a better explanation would be to put the objects in this order (left to right): menu stuff, flexible space, search bar, then activity indicator
MY MINOR PROBLEMS:
-The opacity on the inactive tabs is a little too much i think
-there should be an option for the go button...instead of being attached
-love the rss icon in the address bar when hover over it
-the buttons back/forward/reload/stop buttons seem a tad bit too dark
-the search button (magnifying glass) is a little pale
-border around the buttons
Posted by: Corey Farwell | September 11, 2006 8:48 PM
Much much better. I still have a things to comment on.
MAJOR PROBLEM:
putting the search bar on the navigation toolbar. a better explanation would be to put the objects in this order (left to right): menu stuff, flexible space, search bar, then activity indicator
MY MINOR PROBLEMS:
-The opacity on the inactive tabs is a little too much i think
-there should be an option for the go button...instead of being attached
-the buttons back/forward/reload/stop buttons seem a tad bit too dark
-the search button (magnifying glass) is a little pale
-border around the buttons
Posted by: Corey Farwell | September 11, 2006 8:49 PM
sorry for the double post
Posted by: Corey Farwell | September 11, 2006 8:49 PM
I like it - mostly
Only complaints:
Folder icons: *Blue* folders look out of place
Tabs: I don't like how the background tabs blend into the tabbar background, so I think the tabbar background should be darker.
Posted by: kiroset | September 11, 2006 9:57 PM
Well, the tabs are an improvement, even though they still look strange when you're on a page with a similar background color.
Home button: as previous posts.
Back/Forward buttons hover state: much better!
IMHO the go and search buttons where _much_ better before. Now they are so faint that I hardly see the search glass and the search bar is missing its left border all together.
And whats up with the blue bookmark folders? e.g. "Who the *#!%%& pimped my Firefox?" (and that not a good thing...)
If they're still there in the final bits I'll just need to go get me another theme, because right now they are constantly screaming for my attention...
Otherwise, keep up the good work!
Posted by: Henrik Nystrom | September 11, 2006 9:58 PM
Well I really like some of the changes (search bar, tabs, back&forward icons), but please change those blue folders!
Posted by: grzybu | September 11, 2006 10:16 PM
I think its a clear improvement. Things I (still) stumbled over:
Win:
- tab bar scroll buttons: coloring of mouse over instance should be adjusted to list all tabs button mouse over instance
- search symbol on search bar end cap isn't visible good enough in comparison to the other active buttons
Mac:
- search bar: notification that the page offers search plug-ins for download is barely visible
- left tab bar scroll button: coloring of its instances should be adjusted to the ones of the right scroll button
- small version back and forward history buttons: they need to be placed one pixel higher to meet the back and forward buttons in mouse over instance
- tab close button: still on the right side instead of on the left
- adress bar buttons: the distance between the small buttons is 13 pixels, between the big version buttons its 10 pixels. The gaps between the small version should be reduced
- the go to button (end cap) on the address bar looks a bit out of place since its the only one of this design now
Nevertheless thanks a lot for all your hard work!!
Dex
Posted by: dex_sf | September 11, 2006 10:19 PM
Is anyone able to upload some screenshots?
Posted by: Mr Lizard | September 11, 2006 10:55 PM
Much better on Windows XP Classic :)
All my main usability problems seem to be gone, and I like the blue for the folders.
Regards,
Rob...
Posted by: Rob... | September 11, 2006 11:11 PM
(linux)
Looks much better, but the home button still nedded more colors like blue or green. Also the httpS lock symbol is not very clear.
Other minor issues: the blue folders maybe need little enlargement on height, and the text on non-active tabs maybe a bit less darkness.
Posted by: vola | September 11, 2006 11:21 PM
Great Improvements:
- Love the new Refresh Button
- Love the new look for the Tabs
- Blue folders look good and fresh
But one of the most thoughful change was the CSS change to smoothen the Address Bar border in Windows Classic so that it plays well with the Go button and the rest of the theme. I use Win2000 Professional in my office and now everything seems to be great.
I have not seen, but I guess major changes have been made on Mac too.
Negatives:
- Just the Home button. It sure deserves to change.
Posted by: Ronin | September 12, 2006 12:46 AM
To tell you the truth, I see no difference in the poor quality of the toolbar icons. Most icons are unchanged, a few have a different drawing like Reload, Home and History (none of them are improvements IMHO), but style and contrast are poor and unchanged.
So I'm a bit surprised to read all those positive comments. But if the Firefox users are happy, I'm happy. I just go on using my own theme :).
Posted by: MJK | September 12, 2006 12:47 AM
Icons state should be inverted so the more contrast icon is normally shown while dimmed icon is showed on hover.
i like the new home icon but not in this brown colour, try again, i think that white with roof and door brown could be ok :)
i like the new refresh icon.
turn back bookmarks folder to yellowish.
i have read on bugzilla that the background tabs will have hovered state as default, making them too much similar to selected tabs, don't do that!
scroll and all tabs buttons should definetely connect to whitestrip, they are floating around, and a pixel padding should disconnect them from the tabs.
all the rest is fine for me.
Posted by: mak77 | September 12, 2006 1:56 AM
hey look at this home mockup that was posted on mozillazine forums:
http://jciv.com/moz/home.png
i think that this looks fine!
Posted by: mak77 | September 12, 2006 2:10 AM
A lot better ... than the previous state of the theme.
I still think this is a step back from the 1.5 theme, though.
A few things:
o New reload icon looks great!
o Home icon colors should be tweaked (as mentioned above).
o Icons are still too faded when not hovered over. ("Don't click me.") Just use the current 'hovered' icons.
o I like the idea behind the new tab bar, but it looks dark and out of place, at least on my WinXP/Silver color scheme.
- Michael
Posted by: Michael | September 12, 2006 2:10 AM
Oh, forgot one thing:
o The new bookmarks folder icon looks cheap and out of place, IMHO.
- Michael
Posted by: Michael | September 12, 2006 2:15 AM
Some improvements alright like the refresh icon though I would like to point out some things like some of the others above
* Home icon still needs to worked on.
* Blue bookmark folders look just plain wrong, XP uses yellow folders and so does Vista.
* The mouse-over/highlight action of icons looks odd to me.
Posted by: Gavin | September 12, 2006 2:25 AM
Hopefully the go-button-problem will be fixed soon:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347754
Posted by: Daniel | September 12, 2006 2:28 AM
i like the previous search bar style (under mac), this new theme seems return the search bar style back to 1.5.0.x version.
Posted by: cris | September 12, 2006 3:45 AM
Sorry, if I ask a stupid question, but where can I get nightly builds for Fx 2 release?
Posted by: Roland Tepp | September 12, 2006 4:03 AM
This is so much better!
Biggest complaint I have is the "Home" icon, like a lot of other people.
I don't mind the folder icons being blue so much, but I think they could look better. It took me a second to realize they were supposed to be folders...
Posted by: Aaron44126 | September 12, 2006 4:16 AM
I have to say, the revised tabs look pretty nice on both Windows and Linux (GNOME). However, I still have a major problem with the icon set. Compared to the Fx 1.5 icon set, they are more complex, less bright/colourful/saturated, more difficult to immediately understand, and are nearly unmemorable.
Blue folders? Brown house? A fading refresh icon when no other icon fades in any direction? The washed out colours? The gloss effect just does *not* seem to be working (although I've not seen it on Vista). I imagine the first thing I'll do after installing Fx 2.0 is install the Winstripe theme.
Like others, I too fear that time is running out to turn this theme around such that it possess the character and visual distinction of Winstripe.
Posted by: Sohail Mirza | September 12, 2006 4:30 AM
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8.1b2) Gecko/20060912 BonEcho/2.0b2 on Windows 2000
Overall, definitely better:
Reload, Back and Forward and History are nice. Especially Reload: that is a refresh! The tabs look better under Win2000 now. Nice job!
But still not perfect. What I still do NOT like:
* Home - while it is better than the despicable one on Beta2 it is still somehow dark and dreary. As someone has already mentioned the yellow color is missing from the core Icon set. A yellow roof, or door would lighten up the whole theme immensely. Please, do not leave it like that!!!
* Go and search Icons still not removable from the respective bar. I do not need them, they look nice, but should be removable. Please.
* The Padlock with the "under construction" band. Both in the address bar and the options menu. It does not look right. The 1.5 one was so much slicker.
* The Privacy Icon in Options - it is unintelligible! Looks like a twisted gray padlock with something red in front of it. What is it?
* Tabs and Advanced icons in Options - both are neither slick, nor elegant. Somehow clumsy.
* I do not see any blue folders in the build I am using (probably changed already), but if I have just missed them, I simply want to say that I do not like blue folders.
Thanks for listening and please keep up the good work. The theme is so important! Looking forward to the new improvements before 2.0 final.
Posted by: Stankov | September 12, 2006 5:36 AM
I like the blue folders - excellent - yellow is ancient and doesn't match the theme at all. Maybe some small tweaking to crisp up the folder icons.
Home icon - needs more blue, less brown.
Overall huge improvement.
g/
Posted by: genec | September 12, 2006 5:39 AM
Good points:
The reload button is much nicer, and the tabs -- which I thought were the best feature of the previous revision -- have been improved further. The spacing between buttons feels right. Text buttons and extensions without mouse-over images look better now that the borders has been restored to the hover state of the toolbar buttons.
Bad points:
The scroll-buttons on the tab overflow are far, far too pale, as are the borders around the Go, Search and Search Engine buttons (these borders don't match those of the location bar or search field, so I'm sure more work will be done). The folder icons look a bit messy - again, they lack definition, and there's an ugly dark blue smudge that I guess is supposed to indicate shineyness, but fails. The Home button is /better/, but now it looks muddy.
Conclusion:
It's still very easy to pick holes in, but I can now use the theme without constantly seeking a replacement. With a few more tweaks, it'll be a matter of taste between the subdued look of Firefox 2 and the vibrant, crisp look of 1.5. The older theme fits better with XP's Luna styling and bright primary colours motif, so if evaluated from an OS Integration point of view the new theme is a step backwards on Windows. I think that angle can be downplayed, however, as the XP look itself is beginning to look tired and was always a source of ridicule. It's important that Firefox isn't seen to stagnate, so sometimes a change of direction is as good as a step forwards.
Posted by: James S. | September 12, 2006 5:46 AM
Paste and copy still suck - try and tell them apart, a challenging task indeed...
The new tab icon is still hard to understand and the new home icon is much too detailed.
Posted by: Will | September 12, 2006 6:20 AM
My 2 cents:
Generally better than Beta2
but
- Home icon still needs work, it is dirty and brown, come on!
- Greens and blues can be a bit more saturated on unhovered state
- I don't like the blue folders, maybe it would be better if it's cleaned up a little.
Posted by: mdakin | September 12, 2006 6:37 AM
Mac theme:
* Tab bar too high. Tab bar is now almost same height as main toolbar.
* Tabs look great, but... But Windows's ones are any time better. There should be some kind of bolder border or somethings that make them look more modern. Like the new toolbar is -- Has gradient macish background, glossiness and so on. Maybe making them lower and replacing font is already a solution. New close button is good.
* Icon sizes. Main toolbar is so low now. New icon sizes was a mistake in my opinion. To be honest the Mac's UI is still a clean, big and easy to read and follow thing. Big icons are very mac like and much more beautiful. Safari and Mail are different. They have bubble-like icons which are other topic. Standard size icons would be great
* Preferences. If we look any other application's prefs and compare it with Firefox's we see a huge differents between fonts, buttons and margins-paddings. There is too much clean space and fonts are too large and so on. Safari-s prefs are one of the best one i think. The pref window is also too wide. Icon bar has way too mach free space. In addition tabs in Advanced panel look horrible, very old and ugly in my opinion. (Jaguar? Cheetah?)
By the way, old icons are back in prefs. Some of them ugly and strange.
* As well as other dialogs. Download window, Updating window, search engines dropdown etc. All these little things need a little work i think. Safari agian is a great example of perfect UI. I mean fonts, their sizes and alignment, as well as margins etc. Small things, but fixing these will make FF really perfect.
* Cursors. What's the deal with loading cursor on FF?
Posted by: mark | September 12, 2006 6:49 AM
I like the bright colours. This is good. I hope you make the go/search button brighter too.
Posted by: doremi | September 12, 2006 7:11 AM
just one more thing to add to my previous post.
it is not entirely a theme issue, but still has to do much with it.
why are the icons on the "find as you type" bar missing? now it is impossible to intuitively go to the previous or next entry of the searched term, or close the bar. it is a huge step back in usability for me, and i suppose quite a few other people.
i hope it is changed before 2.0 final.
Posted by: Stankov | September 12, 2006 7:28 AM
I asked mozilla korean users for new themes. Most of them talked me mixing of 1.5 icons and RC1 tabs (today build).
Posted by: Channy | September 12, 2006 7:42 AM
The Mac Theme has come a long way, but I would like to see more 3D effects on the buttons and give the history icon, and the Print Icon MORE Color, they are washed out...Like the gradient in the Tab Bar, Keep Up the Great Work!
Posted by: Ray Marotta | September 12, 2006 7:55 AM
My only real beef is with the padlock icon... it looks really poor. Apart from that, good stuff.
Stankov wrote: "The Privacy Icon in Options - it is unintelligible! Looks like a twisted gray padlock with something red in front of it. What is it?"
It's meant to be one of those things you hang on your doorknob at hotel rooms that says 'Do Not Disturb' (or more generally, 'Privacy Please')
Posted by: Steve England | September 12, 2006 8:23 AM
Padlock icon in the URL bar (and the status bar) when viewing a secure site, that is.
Posted by: Steve England | September 12, 2006 8:23 AM
The "new tab" button:
- Still looks like an ambulance with it's red and blue squares.
- The outer border on the lower half turns darker when the button is hovered over or activated yet the top half, which is supposed to be the "tab", remains grey.
The "home" button (Sept 12 version):
- The new brown roof appears to be thinner nearer the peak then at the edges. I preferred the Sept. 11th version with the white roof.
Posted by: David Longe | September 12, 2006 9:09 AM
Folder Icon - current (sep 12) yellow one is clean and crisp - but I'd prefer to see same icon colored blue instead of yellow.
Posted by: genec | September 12, 2006 9:14 AM
To second a comment above, the URL dropdown looks strange in Windows 2000 or XP classic mode. Everything else is toolbar gray, but there it sits all shiny and new!
Also, the magnifying glass beside the search bar is very hard to see. I'd just as soon see it gone, but if it's going to be there, it should have more contrast with the background of the toolbar.
Posted by: Michael Newton | September 12, 2006 10:22 AM
(running on Linux)
The "Go" and search (magnifying glass) icons looks much
better integrated. But I *still* want to be able to remove
them!
The "reload" button looks all washed out and horrible.
In comparison the [SSL] padlock graphic is AWFUL - looks
really dirty due to the detail and that horrid stripe. Go back
to the 1.5 one - really clear and simple and OBVIOUSLY a
padlock.
The "list all tabs" drop down did a weird sort of "brown glow"
when I first opened up several tabs. Reminded me of
something else brown...
Speaking of which, the theme IS getting better, but I can't
help but feel you're just trying to "polish shit." The amount
of time and money being spent (wasted) on this....
I'll reserve judgement 'til 2.0 Final, but right now 1.5 is still
much better. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Posted by: anonymous | September 12, 2006 10:22 AM
The home button. Perhaps make the "roof" dark brown, and leave the rest of the house whiter instead of brown. It just looks ugly as it is.
Posted by: Cap'n Refsmmat | September 12, 2006 2:52 PM
after the 20060912 what i don't like:
- home icon should have white walls (or lighter brownish)
- all tabs button is too dark, it feels like disabled
- hover state on go, search, engine is not clear
Posted by: mak77 | September 12, 2006 3:25 PM
Hi,
the Mac theme - some small improvements, but is still a disaster.
The new Home button has now the right color for the whole theme - looks like a piece of shit ;-)
Why is it not impossible to create a Navigation Toolbar background, a Bookmarks Toolbar background and tabs in a concerted style - and for the extention toolbars naturally as well
Holy shit, they work some months on it and have still nothing.
The icons must be tuned on it - on what?
I can`t believe it - dilettantes
by the way, it`s a theme created without any "love"
Regards
Aronnax http://www.takebacktheweb.org/
Posted by: Aronnax | September 12, 2006 3:32 PM
Almost every single one of my comments [1] from last time you asked still stands. These are the most important of my previous comments that need to be addressed:
* The Go and Search buttons *must* be separated from the location and search bars, so that I can get rid of the useless things.
* The Quick Find bar needs to have at the Next, Previous, Highlight and Match Case options, like the ordinary find bar does.
* I want to be able to turn off the close buttons on the tabs because I don't need them. I prefer middle clicking.
* When there's only one tab open and the tab bar is visible, closing it should navigate to about:blank and still allow me to return using Back, instead of having to go to the History menu.
The look of the icons have improved slightly, but I still prefer those from 1.5.
[1] http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2006/09/new_firefox_the.html
(There's no direct link to my previous comment available, just search for Lachlan in that page to find it)
Posted by: Lachlan Hunt | September 12, 2006 6:10 PM
I have to strongly second Lachlan's complaint about the Quick Find bar, though I'm not sure how much of a "theme" issue this is: I cannot see ANY reason for the new behavior of completely disallowing "Find Next" without switching to Full Find. Yes, I understand removing the icons (not sure whether I agree, but I don't think that matters now).
C'mon, if I know enough to have turned on FAYT, then press "Ctrl+F" if I want a full Find, wouldn't I likely know that F3 means "Next"? And wouldn't I do a Quick Find, then try pressing F3 directly (since I don't look at the bar anyways, just at the results)? So why doesn't that work? I can't see the reason for disabling it!
Anyways, I also want to explicitly agree with the critiques on the blue folders (especially with the dark / light elliptical weirdness), the padlock (really not as meaningful or clear as the 1.5 version), and the strange padlock for "Options | Privacy" (what the heck happened to that thing?!).
The theme is progressing well, so I'm looking forward to these remaining things getting sorted out. Plus getting the icons in the status bar back. ;)
Posted by: Step | September 12, 2006 6:52 PM
I consider it a small improvement over beta2. There were some improvements (tabs look better; cleaned up the List All Tabs button; normal button borders have been restored and the weird back/forward hover effect is gone) and a few things that look worse (I don't like the new refresh icon; the ugly white house is now a dirty brown shack).
My biggest beef hasn't been fixed: the washed out, faded default icons. Fixing that one thing would make the new theme look so much better. If that gets fixed I can live with it. I may not be crazy about it, but at least it won't be so drab that I have to reinstall the old Winstripe theme.
Other minor quibbles:
I think I finally figured out the Privacy icon. It appears to be one of those "do not disturb" signs you hang on the door knob of your hotel room door. It is not obvious though, and I think others will make the same mistake I did and think it is a lock drawn by a really crappy artist. Needs work.
Please keep the yellow folders. I know some people think the blue folders look cool. But the theme is already loaded with blue colored icons. Yellow adds a little more variety in the color scheme.
Posted by: wg | September 12, 2006 7:31 PM
In the latest build (12/9) I see some more improvements. Small icons look better (the back/forward buttons look like they are horizontally squashed though). Though, I must say, after looking at the reload button, it looks like it is in a different style to the rest of the buttons. It's likely because the "gloss" that you are attempt rolls around similar to the shape of the button, and you can't tell. It looks very much like the old style, but improved.
Further, the search engine button still needs to be reverted. It is too out of place, and the indicator of a websites engine is way to faint.
By the way, is the planned use of a search engine without installing it still going to happen?
Posted by: Daniel | September 12, 2006 7:34 PM
This theme update is much nicer in classic theme with Windows XP! I did whine about that a bit (a few of my bugs have been fixed).
The buttons on the navigation toolbar could still do with a bevel effect on hover IMHO. According to the notes on the changes they're supposed to 'glow' on hover but there isn't a glow for me, only a slight opacity change of the icon on the button.
Posted by: mmj | September 12, 2006 9:55 PM
Definitive improvement from Beta 2. I just hope that Go button will be separated, as current state somehow just looks wrong to me. Other than that - a wast improvement in a short time.
Posted by: Radomir | September 13, 2006 5:12 AM
For Winstripe:
I don't think that the previous home icon looked as if it were disabled. The problem was rather that the difference between the normal and hover states were barely visible. But now that's not a problem any more as the buttons have native borders. There are also some other white toolbar buttons in the theme (but not shown by default), I don't think that this is a problem.
The Go ans Search buttons blend in well with the native theme, but I think they're a bit too transparent, they're barely visible apart from the icons and borders. It would be nice to make them more like the location bar dropdown (but still transparent). The Go button should also blend in with the location bar drop down.
The Search engine dropdown lost its border on the left on Windows.
The tab bar is nice, except that the selected tab looks like as it were a pixel lower than the non-active tabs (this is just an illusion, but it does look like that).
The New Tab and New Window buttons on the toolbar should be aligned with the bottom of the other buttons and not the top (one pixel lower).
Posted by: Szabolcs | September 13, 2006 7:26 AM
Preference Privacy Icon - As others say this is non-obvious - I'd suggest an icon of a door - closed maybe or 1/2 closed - perhaps with the Red Do Not enter sign on it.
Posted by: genec | September 13, 2006 7:42 AM
It seems that they've made a lot of progress making the new theme (in the toolbar, at least) more like the existing theme. The buttons are actually usable now. Which is good. But it makes me wonder why in the world they're doing anything at all to those buttons. Why fix what ain't broken? And what is wrong with having the "go" and "search" buttons separate from the addressbar and search bar? What is remedied by not making them removable?
Fix what *is* broken. The tab bar could definitely use some UI love, but this latest version seems to be a step backward. The out-of-focus tabs still look "disabled" They are the same hue as the background of the tab bar, so they look see-through. The side buttons for tab overflow don't even seem to have a "pressed" state.
So, don't fix what ain't broken, and don't break worse what's already broken. Seems like a good code to live by.
I guess I just don't see the logic of change for change's sake, which seems to be the raison d'etre for most of this UI "improvement".
Posted by: Chris Nelson | September 13, 2006 7:44 AM
I like it all except the home button, I think it is better white. It now looks like a wood cabin that is on fire.
Also, IMO, the close button on tabs is alittle too glossy.
Posted by: Scott | September 13, 2006 11:23 AM
Personally, I love it. I *was* going to wait until a couple days after the lockdown for RC1 to update, but I just couldn't stand the beta2 toolbars--that extra padding really makes a difference!
Posted by: LinkTiger | September 13, 2006 11:38 AM
hello Asa,
well, again, this is not a fully theme problem, but the issue that Stankov, Lachlan Hunt And Step mentioned, about the lack of buttons in the "Find as you type" toolbar, is a major problem that hurts this wonderful feature of firefox. it is a useful feature, that was very easy to use, but since not many people bother to learn keyboard shortcuts, removing the buttons on the first FFYT run is just wrong in my view.
i also agree with the issues about the go button (green arrow) which is part of the address bar, and not a separated one, and the magnifying glass of the search bar, which is almost the same color as the background.
the fix done to the hover over tabs was one step 2 far in my opinion - first u could barely notice the color change when hover above the tabs. now, it is the exact same colors as the selected tab. it should b somewhere in the middle.
another thing about tabs is the arrow that suppose to show u that u have more tabs 2 the right. it is barely noticable, and should have some "popup" color effect, so u can actually see that u have more tabs hidden from view.
last thing, which is again not fully a theme problem, is the missing "clear cache button". this has been filed as a bug a few months ago;
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=343773
but it seems no1 is really handling it. clearing cache is not just a privacy issue, it is a tool which people sometimes use to fix problem while surfing. so it simply wrong to have this buried under almsot 10 steps. even if not many people use it (which i doubt, because it is pretty useful, especially when giving technical support), it is illogical to have it the way it is now, when the cache options has just the memory size box, and nothing more.
i hope it will get fix, because ff2 suppose to fight the new ie7.
Doron.
Posted by: Doron T. | September 13, 2006 2:42 PM
hi again Asa,
a minute after posting my comment here, i installed the latest nightly (20060913), and i saw the buttons are back on the find as you type.
so to whom ever is responsible for it, and actually, all the gr8 ppl at firefox and mozilla - thank you.
Doron.
Posted by: Doron T. | September 13, 2006 2:55 PM
Doron, regarding the buttons on the Find and Quick Find bars, there is a difference between them. When you press Ctrl+F (or equivalent), you get the regular Find bar which has those buttons. However, when you press slash (/), apostrophe (') or have the "Search for text when I start typing" option enabled, you get the Quick Find bar which does not have the buttons.
Also, I'm aware that it's not specifically a theme related issue, but rather more of a general UI issue that really needs to be fixed. The only difference between the two should be that the Quick Find bar closes as soon as it loses focus and the Find bar remains open until its close button is pressed or the user presses Esc while it has focus.
Posted by: Lachlan Hunt | September 13, 2006 7:25 PM
Lachlan and Doron,
I mentioned earlier that I understood the reasoning for not having the buttons on the Quick Find Bar. It's pretty well-explained if you read through the bug report, but basically it's to prevent frustration from trying to click the buttons and not being fast enough (the Quick Find isn't meant to keep focus, it's meant to quickly locate something).
I still think the keyboard shortcuts should apply, since it's often the second (not first) incidence of a word on a page I want. The shortcuts are a different case than the buttons, since you don't have the same speed or "race" issue (trying to get to the function before the Quick Find bar hides). Maybe it's an implementation problem, then?
Posted by: Step | September 13, 2006 8:27 PM
The Homepage Icon is brown and ugly. I really hope that will change before the release.
Posted by: testboy | September 13, 2006 9:57 PM
Step, the keyboard shortcuts do still work. F3 (Next) and Shift+F3 (Prev) always work. But, AFAIK, there's no shortcut for highlight or match case.
Posted by: Lachlan Hunt | September 13, 2006 11:36 PM
The QuickFind issue:
can someone give the number of the bug? I personally think removing the buttons is a huge mistake and a step back in usability. I know quite a few people (not tech savvy) for whom exactly this feature makes the decisive difference to IE. I am afraid we could even lose them. I share the opinion of Lachlan.
The Theme on Win2000:
After using it for a longer time I noticed that the gap above the tabs to the Toolbar is too big, probably 3 or 4 pixels. In other words the Tabbar is too high for the tabs themselves. I would suggest making the tabs 2 pixels higher or the bar itself 2 pixels lower. It looks like a gaping hole.
Posted by: Stankov | September 14, 2006 1:52 AM
Mac and Windows: The new home button styling is definitely a move in the right direction... as in the single colour and the "faded" look make it match the main icon set better. However the choice of colour, and the high degree of contrast, make it look like someone's nice white house was spattered with mud. I presume the shading/contrast is supposed to indicate lighting effects, but I don't think it's been applied with much care.
Mac-only:
- The ("large") toolbar icons are unusually small, as are the tab close buttons. Maybe it was meant to be "sleek", but I think it just looks compacted.
- I still think the choice of colours for the Mac version makes it look like a childrens' Christmas theme. Lots of white/light grey with candy-colouring in between. Probably not the best for the default theme. Most of the icon colours aren't too bad (aside from aforementioned house), but the reload button is a gaudy, "plastic" blue. It really feels like it was designed for young kids to play with.
Posted by: Wayne Woods | September 14, 2006 2:13 AM
Lachan - you're correct, they do still work. They must have been broken for a few of the nightlies or something, because I tried them more than once. Thanks for letting me know, I'm happy now. ;)
Posted by: Step | September 14, 2006 5:38 AM
Asa,
Just my $0.02: the 20060914 build is the best yet. It feels the most "ship-worthy" of any of the new-look/theme builds I've seen. Keep up the hard work. You guys are getting there!
Posted by: Kevin | September 14, 2006 6:29 AM
There are times for criticism, and times to congratulate; it seems the later has finally arrived. The latest build of Firefox (20060914 BonEcho/2.0) now offers a pleasant interface to users.
All toolbar controls are now once more blending with your OS colors, and the vision behind buttons attached to text boxes seems to have reached a descent aesthetic state.
I'd still appreciate a re-drawing most of the preference upper icons (the privacy icon is still scaring most people at first sight). But it seems things are back on track.
This theme refresh had to pay an heavy price, that is losing a bit of Firefox's natural integration with OSes. The location bar and search bar are now using customized text box borders and drop down arrow. We'll see how Linux distribution will play with that, aiming for UI unification throughout major application on their platform. A custom gnome theme might emerge from Fedora or Ubuntu.
Time will tell...
Posted by: Mathieu Pellerin | September 14, 2006 7:44 AM
OMG, I'm seeing ... the present. While browsing Ubuntu's Wiki, I ran across their latest release note: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot3
Interestingly, they now offer a custom theme for Firefox. Unfortunately, they seem to still use beta1.
Forgot to mention, have you ever noticed how the 'tabs' icon in the preference window looks just like a washing machine? ; )
Posted by: Mathieu Pellerin | September 14, 2006 8:22 AM
just fired up 20060914 for Win XP: I agree, it's coming along very nicely!
I'm getting used to the new [Home] icon, though it still seems a little too detailed - maybe because of the color choice?
The [Go] button frame or edge is fine now, and matches the dropdown for the address bar. Great!
The magnifying glass still seems too faded, and it makes the edge/frame also seem lighter (even though it isn't).
IMHO, I liked the tab bar (selected and non-selected tabs, hovers even) from yesterday much better than today's version. On both versions, though, the buttons at the end are too light even when available. I can't tell if I'm at the end of my tabs unless I actually click on the icon (or try and [ctrl] + [pg up/down] until I'm back at the other end.
Anyway, I'd say the theme is now at an acceptable stage for shipment, though I hope there's still a little tweaking to be done. ;) Thanks again for listening, guys, and for striving for such a high standard.
Posted by: Step | September 14, 2006 8:34 AM
Mac: In general, the new theme is a step back compared to the old; the new theme doesn't integrate well with the OS. For instance, the ordinary size of the toolbar is similar to the standard "small" toolbar size in Mac applications. Also, having the close box to the right on tabs is just wrong if you compare it to every other Mac application featuring tabs.
Please, don't make Firefox feel any less Mac native; it's already used as the main argument against using it on Macs.
Posted by: Dan V. P. Christiansen | September 15, 2006 7:57 AM
I'm really, really wondering why you guys put such great effort in giving FireFox:mac a preferencewindow with a reasonably decent mac feel if youre going to 'piss it all away' with the theme. It's a waste.
Posted by: Nietzman | September 16, 2006 3:20 PM
someone post a screenshot, i dont have the space, or time to download the latest release.
Posted by: alpha | September 16, 2006 7:29 PM
"Please" would be nice.
Posted by: bob | September 17, 2006 7:35 AM
I would say drop the red shiny close button on the active tab as it is too distracting for just a close button.Something like this is more clear (maybe make the current red close button bg white and make the x on top black): http://www.aelon.net/graphics/images/ie7_small.png
Lessen the washout on the search icon as well I'd say. Also, the drop down button for the location bar is not transparently done like the tab bar.
It is shaping up quite nice though!
Posted by: kp | September 17, 2006 10:10 AM
The new version is a big improvement. The back and forward arrows are much clearer, and they behave like proper buttons now. Still hoping it will be possible to remove the go buttons.
But you clearly have decided to take the Firefox UI in a totally different direction, breaking away from looking like a native application. In the previous version the (native looking) adress bar totally didn't fit with the attached (non-native looking) go button. The solution to this appears to be making the adress bar non-native too, instead of the other way around.
Personally I think that's a shame. So much apps these days have their own look and feel, making a complete mess of the desktop.
I'll keep checking in to see if it improves but to be honest I don't think it will.
I know I probably sound negative, but it's how I honestly feel about it.
Posted by: Jeroen | September 19, 2006 4:06 PM
New(er) theme looks great; except, something has gone horribly wrong with the Home button icon. The color (hideous brown/purple) should not exist. Even a slight color shift, away from brown, in the direction of red/purple would be better.
Overall, looks great! Big improvement from 2.0 Beta 2!
Posted by: Shannon | September 20, 2006 8:32 AM
Okay, the chocolate house is growing on me. Looks tasty.
Posted by: Shannon | September 20, 2006 11:20 AM
The active tab is too close to the unactive tab. I want it to really pop out, so I know what I am on.
The brown house is yucky looking.
Posted by: aubrey | September 20, 2006 12:20 PM
Still terrible.
The green used for the back and forward buttons is dull and ugly. The reload button is asymmetrical. The Home button is too detailed and doesn't use the warm colors of the old house. On Windows, the buttons look half-disabled until you hover over them. On Mac, where buttons aren't supposed to change on hover, the buttons change on hover.
The best-looking button on my toolbar, by far, is one added by an extension.
I find it hard to believe we're considering shipping Firefox 2 with this theme.
Posted by: Jesse Ruderman | September 21, 2006 9:29 PM
Side-by-side screenshots on Windows:
http://www.squarefree.com/visual-refresh.png
Posted by: Jesse Ruderman | September 21, 2006 9:46 PM
I'm glad to hear my argument from one of original firefox developers: "[...] making the user-interface as native as possible was one of the original goals of the project now known as Firefox."
He also has nifty screen captures of the beast.
http://dbaron.org/log/2006-09#e20060921a
Posted by: Mathieu Pellerin | September 23, 2006 3:32 AM
I HATE the now "home" icon. It just doesn't feel natural with the other icons.
Posted by: Dylan Taylor | September 26, 2006 3:28 PM
I agree - the Home icon is just plain dark and ugly. It somehow doesn't work with the other icons. If it were lighter (a lot lighter), it would work a lot better.
Posted by: Nick Powers | September 27, 2006 5:22 AM
I can agree that the home icon sucks. The old theme is way better. The exception is the reload icon.
Posted by: rockr | September 27, 2006 1:59 PM
Firefox needs a professional look.
The default theme looks the opposite.
Posted by: LorenzoC | September 28, 2006 4:40 AM
The faux-rounded dropdowns, in particular, look entirely out of place on OS X. And is there any chance of having less ugly icons on all platforms? Or a cleaner, more svelte look (a la IE 7), at least on Windows?
Posted by: eM | September 29, 2006 7:44 AM
there should be less padding in the toolbars
Posted by: Zebra Gang | October 8, 2006 5:30 PM
I gotta say it's really drab. The gradients everywhere lend the theme a weight that takes away from Fx's simplicity. Not a big fan -- if someone re-skins back to Fx 1.5 I'm certainly going to snag it.
Posted by: KevinFreitas | October 9, 2006 9:12 PM
Just tried it and the theme is fine. Buttons smaller on some systems = good. Active tab is much more visible now = good. I would prefer slightly less grayed out arrows, but who cares?
I predict bitter complaints. If you change it back, I predict bitter complaints. Get a life, folks. Although I complained (comment missing in action) about taking development time for fritterware, complaining bitterly about unimportant details an equal drain.
If this comes up again, I do think there may be (and there have always been) some legibility issues, especially if you have an old, fuzzy monitor with only a few pixels. The arrows and the reload button are still too fat and squat. The reload button kind of looks like a sphere with no distinguishing marks. And fat and squat isn't particularly artistic or pleasing, but who cares?
Posted by: AnotherGuest. | October 12, 2006 8:45 AM