Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

I only hope there is a medicine for this.

It would be nice to see Firefox as #1, with Opera a close #2, and IE a distant third. (Or better yet, Safari as #3, and IE #4...)

Of course, I'd be OK with Opera as #1 and Firefox as a close #2. Watching them alternate between the top two spots would be even better!

He says #2 because #1 isn't realistic as long as MS keeps bundling IE with windows. If anything besides IE was #1, it would be Opera, with FF as a close second if IE's not second.

Now, It's not that I don't like Firefox, I just believe that Opera is a better alternative, and I'm very interested in what's going to happen with FF 1.5 and Opera 9.0 come out. It should be close.

I don't think you dislike Opera, I just think you tend to make jerky comments about Opera.

It isn't that some of us think you hate Opera or want it to fail. It's that you have a superiority complex about Firefox, and everytime you mention Opera, you have to mention how it's not as good as Firefox, "copying" Firefox, or what have you. You just can't seem to mention Opera without throwing in a snide comment about it compared to Firefox.

@hmmm, isn't that normal? It is a blog from a Mozilla guy. Why can't he compare Opera with Firefox?

If you don't like here, just go somewhere else. :-)

Not from someone who considers them professional.

Comparing a competitor is one thing. Making a snide remark everytime you give it praise is another. It's unprofessional.

Yes, it's his blog, so he has every right to do it. But he should understand the consequences of such. He is pissing off even some Firefox fans, as they find it in bad taste. He is a true representative of the Mozilla community, and it reflects on them as a whole.

I do follow OperaWatch :) I also follow here because I am interested in what Firefox is up to. I've used it here and there since Phoenix 0.2.

Aww man Asa, those last 2 sentences are going to cause a whole new round of flaming. Mozilla might as well change Firefox's name to Flamingfox at this rate! :)

2Kelson:
> Of course, I'd be OK with Opera as #1 and Firefox as a close #2.
Unreal stuff, IMHO.

Also, I do not find this Asa post to be inflammatory at all. I don't see anything wrong with the last paragraph either.

Today I read, that the CEO of Opera wants Opera to become #2. "Our goal is to become the number two browser," he said

Read the complete context of this quote here:
http://operawatch.blogspot.com/2005/09/opera-ceo-goal-to-become-2nd-most-used.html

Comparing a competitor is one thing. Making a snide remark everytime you give it praise is another. It's unprofessional.

Wow.

Some people take life way to seriously and need to understand the need to lighten up and not take everything as a personal insult to x (where x is the item they seem to think needs utmost defending from the most casual of remarks).

But then again, Trolls wouldn't exist if people like that didn't exist. :)

>> Wow.

I'm not insulted by it at all. There's a difference between being offended or bothered by something, and thinking something is unprofessional and petty.

I'm not insulted by it at all. There's a difference between being offended or bothered by something, and thinking something is unprofessional and petty.

Could have fooled me (in fact you quite clearly did). :)

Asa,

You say you don't hate Opera, or wish them bad. But how can we take that seriously when every single time you mention opera, it is in the context of being either inferior to Firefox, following Firefox's lead, following your suggestions (whether knowingly or not), or simply being inferior. How can even you take yourself seriously when at the top of this blog post you say you don't dislike Opera, yet right below that you continue with usual tirade of Opera not being up to snuff compared to Firefox! You aren't fooling anyone (Except your fan boys).

Face it. Opera is better. Their UI is consistant (all 'extra' UI elements are in the sidebar), they only have one button for Refresh/Stop, tabs are visible by default, its faster and smaller and easier for mom & pop.

So this joke "opera continues t follow firefox's lead" is to whom ?!?
"constructive criticism" - you're shitting me... All the sudden your rants became advices?!? nheeee... Yet, I'm glad to see finally some respect for Opera. Too bad it came late. But better late, than never...
Good to see that FF doesn't have our personality.

What people here fail to realize that Asa is holding Firefox as the highest regard, but Opera users thought Firefox is worse than Opera; therefore, every comparison between Opera and Firefox is considered as an insult in Opera fanboys' eyes which in reality is not an insult.

In the end, it just the question of which one is better than another. Asa said Firefox is better and he compared Firefox and Opera in the way that he is saying Opera is working for making itself better. But in Opera users' views, Asa is saying Opera is getting worse by changing itself to match something less better.

It is insane... no one is trying to look at this by looking through another point of view. All they see is what they want to see.

COME ON PEOPLE!!! Get a grip.

Don't even *bother* trying to reason with the cult of personality personified by the Opera fanboys.

Sure, marketshare is important, as it encourages web developers to support standards that will work for everyone. But don't get too hung up on it.

Think about quality instead. As far as I'm concerned, Opera, Firefox, Safari and others using real rendering engines are in #1 position, or close to it. MSIE comes in at a distant #2, so it's not worth worrying about...

"But how can we take that seriously when every single time you mention opera, it is in the context of being either inferior to Firefox, following Firefox's lead, following your suggestions (whether knowingly or not), or simply being inferior. How can even you take yourself seriously when at the top of this blog post you say you don't dislike Opera, yet right below that you continue with usual tirade of Opera not being up to snuff compared to Firefox! You aren't fooling anyone (Except your fan boys)."

That makes no sense. At all. Unless [saying how x can be improved] = [hating x].

Also, there is the irony that Opera now have removed the ad (as many of us Firefox fanboiZ were suggesting), even though all the Opera fans were going half-nutty trying to defend the presence of the ad before. It feels good to be right guys. You should try it. ;-)

I hope, that the loosing of marketshare affects only IE and shells, and the alternatives (Opera, FF-Mozilla, Safari, Konqueror) all wins bigger user base. Opera has to do much to reach FF's success, but I hope, that Opera will gain more users from IE, than other alternatives, and will be a honest competition!

Nathan: I'm sorry, but that's not how it works, even if I wish it were like that. The sad truth is that nobody cares about testing in a certain browser until it reaches >~5%, as we have been able to see during the past year.

The wonderful Gecko and Opera rendering engines have been around for years, but where was the widespread support?

Afterall, being techically superior doesn't mean it is the best product (yes I'm talking about Opera). A successful product needs to be good at both quality and ease of use (Firefox in this case).

"Don't even *bother* trying to reason with the cult of personality personified by the Opera fanboys." - says a Mac fanboy/zealot.

Go away, mr. Clark. Even though I'm a Firefox user with not much intention of trying Opera, I dislike fanboys calling other people fanboys. Go troll somewhere else, you and the legions of "Opera rulz0rz, Fx sux0rz" and "Fx rulz0rz, Opera sux0rz" morons.

There's plenty of room on the web for both Opera and Firefox, which are awesome browsers. The less IE, the better.

"Afterall, being techically superior doesn't mean it is the best product (yes I'm talking about Opera). A successful product needs to be good at both quality and ease of use (Firefox in this case)."

This can be discussed, as to achieve Opera's level, you need to search and install third party extensions, and these don't run through some sort of quality assurance at all, and I think that shows.

@treego, so what's the big deal here? I'm quite certain that newbies that look for "alternative browser" won't visit this blog. This blog is for geek who love Firefox (and Asa), and to a lesser extend, Opera trolls. Asa's posts won't have much influence to the general public.

@Jug, most people need fundamental goodies only. Things like mouse gesture, session saver, etc aren't needeed by regular people. If you need these, install extensions. That's one of the major reasons why extensions are here.

I am not so naive that the FF zealots are waiting for the next word from Asa on how to discourage others from using anything (including Opera, of course, as is seen with Asa's pre-occupation with his anti-Opera blogs) but Firefox.

FF zealots now can tell those looking for alternatives after reading Asa's instructional propaganda blog ... "Oh, you don't want Opera ... it's for geeks -- not regular people like you and me; besides, Opera is lately just copying Firefox's success formula --- blah, blah, blah."

Oh, well. :-)

Extensions are just optional features, right? Well, Opera has all sorts of features available right out of the box that just work when you want them and do nothing when you don't want them. And Opera does this without the need for 3rd party extensions that may or may not work with each upgrade or pose the security concerns that come with 3rd party software that is unmonitored. Extensions, from my experience, can in no way offer the user such a seamless, integrated experience that Opera offers, either. And to top it off, Opera still comes in at a smaller download than does Firefox (browser only with few features because of its reliance on 3rd party software) though Opera is a suite full of applications (browser, newsgroup reader, newsfeed reader, IRC chat client, and mail client) and features (http://www.opera.com/features/) --- many of which are not replicated nearly as well, if at all (notwithstanding security concerns and/or seamless integration considerations) (i.e., spatial navigation for complete keyboard browsing control, voice, fast forward, rewind, fit-to-width page rendering, complete page zooming, etc.).

Two Opera flamebait threads in one day.. Anyone who does not see Asa's obsession with Opera at this point is (no offense) blind or just plain stupid.

Let me ask you this, apologizers: When Opera went free, did you not IMMEDIATELY anticipate a snide flamebait thread from Asa, like I did? Was this blog not one of the first places you went upon reading the news that Opera was now free? Because you knew there would be a flamefest just waiting to explode, right?! If that is the case, you are no better than the Opera fans you so despise, because Asa's intention is to coerce ALL of us into this nonsense. And you fall into his trap, the same as I did, the same as we all do. Yet you put down Opera fans who come here, even though you knew before you even came here, after Opera went free, that this post would be here, just waiting to incite Opera fans.

"I am not so naive that the FF zealots are waiting for the next word from Asa on how to discourage others from using anything (including Opera, of course, as is seen with Asa's pre-occupation with his anti-Opera blogs) but Firefox.

FF zealots now can tell those looking for alternatives after reading Asa's instructional propaganda blog ... "Oh, you don't want Opera ... it's for geeks -- not regular people like you and me; besides, Opera is lately just copying Firefox's success formula --- blah, blah, blah."

Oh, well. :-)"

Yeah right.

"Because you knew there would be a flamefest just waiting to explode, right?!"

Only because Opera fans are so extremely sensitive and have no humour.

"Well, Opera has all sorts of features available right out of the box that just work when you want them and do nothing when you don't want them. And Opera does this without the need for 3rd party extensions that may or may not work with each upgrade or pose the security concerns that come with 3rd party software that is unmonitored. Extensions, from my experience, can in no way offer the user such a seamless, integrated experience that Opera offers, either. And to top it off, Opera still comes in at a smaller download than does Firefox (browser only with few features because of its reliance on 3rd party software) though Opera is a suite full of applications (browser, newsgroup reader, newsfeed reader, IRC chat client, and mail client) and features (http://www.opera.com/features/) --- many of which are not replicated nearly as well, if at all (notwithstanding security concerns and/or seamless integration considerations) (i.e., spatial navigation for complete keyboard browsing control, voice, fast forward, rewind, fit-to-width page rendering, complete page zooming, etc.)."

We all knew that already. And yet we continue to use Firefox. It must be extremely frustrating for you, and I can vividly see the veins on your forehead almost bursting at the mere thought of it. :-)

If you thought it was funny, you are easily amused. :)

"If you thought it was funny, you are easily amused. :)"

Well, I guess I am easily amused then. So, then, why are you trolling around here if you are so hard to amuse? Heh.

BTW, David, way to ignore the important questions. The ones that actually have implications and meaning behind them:

"When Opera went free, did you not IMMEDIATELY anticipate a snide flamebait thread from Asa, like I did? Was this blog not one of the first places you went upon reading the news that Opera was now free?"

Your answer?

"The ones that actually have implications and meaning behind them:"

Oh, how humble of you. Well, lets see then:

"When Opera went free, did you not IMMEDIATELY anticipate a snide flamebait thread from Asa, like I did?"

No. I anticipated to read Asa's view on Opera's move, and I expected it to be positive. And it was.

"Was this blog not one of the first places you went upon reading the news that Opera was now free?"

No. I went to http://gemal.dk/mozilla/blogupdates.html to read all of the Mozilla guys' views on Opera's move.

We all knew that already. And yet we continue to use Firefox. It must be extremely frustrating for you, and I can vividly see the veins on your forehead almost bursting at the mere thought of it. :-)

Ha! ha! Not hardly ... if you've given both a fair shake and prefer Firefox, more power to you. I think some don't give Opera a "fair shake" though because of the propaganda regarding ads, supposed excessive complexity, etc. That is my point. I do think, on balance, propaganda aside, Opera has far more to offer the general user. Heck, my wife is very non-technical on the PC and I've let her have 'at it' with IE, Firefox, and Opera. She likes Opera the best. The wand is really handy for her online banking in Opera and she says it is much faster at loading pages, usually. To each their own, though ... let's lay the features and specifications out for all to see and cut through the propaganda and marketing gimmicks and sarcastic blogs to see what people really will like better ... :-) (no veins popping out here --- except in my muscular biceps, that is!)

Sorry, but you keep mentioning this 'propaganda' thing? Here's what i read in the blog post above:

"From the radical simplification of the user interface to the change from adware to freeware, Opera is making the best moves possible, as I see it, in winning over a broader audience. I think this is good."

If this is propaganda in any way, it is propaganda for giving Opera a try, not against.

"let's lay the features and specifications out for all to see and cut through the propaganda and marketing gimmicks and sarcastic blogs to see what people really will like better"

I couldn't agree more.

"(no veins popping out here --- except in my muscular biceps, that is!)"

Great. ;-) Maybe I can have a look at those some day?

My 2¢:

> When Opera went free, did you not IMMEDIATELY anticipate a snide flamebait thread from Asa, like I did?

I expected to see a thread flooded with trite, childish insults and snide remarks from the same 4-6 hyperactive kids who don't know how to behave themselves, like I do every other time. Good to see you didn't disappoint.

> Was this blog not one of the first places you went upon reading the news that Opera was now free?

The first thing I did was to download it to see if they fixed the horrible UI. They didn't.
Then I uninstalled it, not because of that, but because I'd rather not be associated with the so-called "Opera community" given the appaling attitude of its members. I'm glad I'm above acting like you on _your_ developers' blogs.

What the heck...

"I hope that Opera continues to improve and to become more acceptable to regular people."

I don't think I've seen a commentator online who is so full of snide passive-aggressive comments.

"I don't think I've seen a commentator online who is so full of snide passive-aggressive comments."

Yeah, taken out it's context it sure does sound underly positive. But if you read on, you'll see that Asa actually is honestly positive about Opera's latest move:

"From the radical simplification of the user interface to the change from adware to freeware, Opera is making the best moves possible, as I see it, in winning over a broader audience. I think this is good."

The wonderful thing about personal blogs is that people are allowed to say what they think, not what a governing organisation allows them to publicly say. Speaking about Opera in an official capacity might be grounds for playing the "omg unprofessional" card, but that isn't what is happening.

This is specifically *not* a developer blog, since it covers other things that Asa is personally interested in. If you can't deal with that, please get your Firefox news from the Mozilla QA Blog and stop wasting time with your opinions of what Asa should or shouldn't say in his personal corner of the web.

Cretins.

I found that this post was unlike past posts, and certainly not intended to prod Opera... it is struck me as a rather light-hearted post.

Take it easy guys and don't get to worked up about it. Never know, it could be an evil ploy by Asa to notch up hits on this blog. If it is, he is genius, and he needs some credit for that. You can see the huge increase in posts/comments whenever Opera is mentioned, compared to the usual posts made by Asa.

I suppose the third-party and open source argument can only stand now... apart from that, there is not much left to come from Asa I suppose.

i be glad the day, asa gets the boot from Mofo. Can't we have someone nice like ben to blog more often. Asa is a same for firefox. And i use firefox from long gone days. and i dont like opera either. but asa gotta go.

And yet the trolling continues, unbelievable. Asa has not been blatantly in-constructive or damn right deragatory about Opera, or any of its users, of anything relating to Opera. He like most users and software producers members be they staff or contributors, scutinizes all browsers, Firefox included. Now, it goes without saying Asa works for Mozilla, is passionate about Firefox, does a lot for it, and of course he thinks its the better product, just as Opera staff think Opera is. Thats blatantly obvious. Sony think they're better than Panasonic, there's no right or wrong answer, there's no devil, or inferior.

Whatever some of you say regarding some of Asa's minor commments that in fairness sometimes can seem to relate to Opera following Firefox or being inferior, not only is that not really meant, your taking it to a whole new level, and being completely hypocritical. All you go on to do is attack Asa, Mozilla, Fireofox and other people, ending up far guiltier of the supposed crime you've just accused.

Give up already. Read some of the posts, stop repeating, stop annoying people, presuming, dicating one is better than the other, trying to make out freedom of speech is ok for you but not others, and generally causing un-necessary friction, wastes of peoples time, and a stupid un-necessary battle between users, devs, producers of modern browsers.

Pro choice please. This should really be the last of this, the pointless, on going same snidey remarks have to stop, your being rude, presumptious, in-accurate, annoying, hypocritical, and un-helpful to all here, and to the wider picture aswell. Live and let live, END OF.

Ignoring the inevitable food fight, I think Asa has explained himself rather well. Thanks, Asa, for your conciliatory note.

I do have to wince at the topic sentence "I hope that Opera continues to improve and to become more acceptable to regular people." It might have been better if he you said "become more widely accepted by regular people", or better yet, "become more widely used by regular people". But since your note was written in a hurry and posted at 1 minute to 5, and since the rest of the note was so conciliatory, I believe the intention was benevolent.

You are to be congratulated on your efforts to oppose monopoly control of standards and software. I think we are all agreed that these are worthy goals, or rather nonnegotiable goals. I believe any person, company or organization that advances this cause is worthy of respect, and I believe we should all demand that that respect be paid.

I am the same "Anonymous" who posted a scathing note at 4:43 PM yesterday. I'm sorry that this discussion was public.

huh.

.... wow.

Craziness, here, I tell you!! There was more read into Asa's simple post than my wife's read into my comments in a year.... :)

LOL Step. Harsher cynicism, questions, assumptions and accusations than any politician has recieved in a year too I think! Being faceless on the web huh ;)

This blog has me convinced that Firefox has a built-in Brainwashing Extension. :)

Asa, you need to realize that any post about Opera -- good, bad, or neither -- will be twisted by both Firefox fans and Opera fans. You can't win, so don't try to reconcile with your readers.

In this case, you certainly can't make everyone happy.

In rereading this most recent of Asa's posts on Opera, I was wondering what it was that struck me as unprofessional and infuriating in some of the previous posts. I wasn't even an Opera user at that time, and was an ardent Firefox supporter.

So I reread many of his comments, including this blog, and discovered that this time they seemed innocent. Was he commenting or criticizing/carping? I can only conclude that the impact depends on your point of view. As an example, he did criticize the supposed clutter of the UI (I have no opinion). As I remember, he was also critical of their business model (having the temerity to charge for their software). This is all right if it's a prediction that it won't work. This has always seemed blatantly unfair if it's a criticism. The argument has certainly been mentioned by Opera opponents, as if programmers don't need to get paid.

The blogosphere is an amazing place in which your words can easily become contaminated by the words of your supporters and detractors. And there are plenty of words on these blogs. Words are always interpreted in the context of what is happening at the time. One commentator was ragging on about how terrible it was that the scroll bar changes color on mouseover, etc., etc. Then Asa unknowingly piled on with his critique of the menus. He was effectively lighting a match, with gasoline everywhere. There's a lot of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides, and we just need to pour water on it whenever it occurs.

It's a sensitive subject. By now Asa has discovered that if he didn't already know. People on both sides of the question need to cool their rhetoric and bite their tongues. That goes for me too. I think we all have a great respect for Asa, Firefox, and the Mozilla folks. We also need to have great respect for Opera and those folks.

I sincerely hope this is my last post on the subject.

Asa,

LOL! That's a good one. I thought it was funny.

I don't know why people take it so seriously. It's obvious to me that it was a tongue-in-cheek kind of remark at the end.

I don't give a flying frig on a shingle if it's Opera, Firefox, IE, some strange port of iCab to Windows, or telnetting to port 80 that becomes the #1 browsing platform on Planet Earth as long as it supports standards and makes my life easier as a modern web developer.

"He says #2 because #1 isn't realistic as long as MS keeps bundling IE with windows. If anything besides IE was #1, it would be Opera, with FF as a close second if IE's not second.

Now, It's not that I don't like Firefox, I just believe that Opera is a better alternative, and I'm very interested in what's going to happen with FF 1.5 and Opera 9.0 come out. It should be close."

What ^ said.

"It isn't that some of us think you hate Opera or want it to fail. It's that you have a superiority complex about Firefox, and everytime you mention Opera, you have to mention how it's not as good as Firefox, "copying" Firefox, or what have you. You just can't seem to mention Opera without throwing in a snide comment about it compared to Firefox."

Also what ^ said.

"Asa, you need to realize that any post about Opera -- good, bad, or neither -- will be twisted by both Firefox fans and Opera fans. You can't win, so don't try to reconcile with your readers.

In this case, you certainly can't make everyone happy."

He could still be a bit more fair when speaking about Opera, instead of saying things such as "it isn't as good as firefox" or "it is following firefox's lead." He could have omited the remark about Opera being in #2 because of Firefox. There wouldn't be as much controversy if he had and doing so would have probably patched things up (regardless of whether or not truly he wants to).

I think most people agree "it isn't as good as firefox" is just fine, any way you look at it - Opera's devs/employees say the same stuff. It is always insinuating that Opera is following Firefox's lead, in every little step it takes - when Firefox copies things all the time from Opera. Isn't that following Opera's lead? I don't really care that Firefox copies, or Opera copies - innovation is good either way. It's Asa always claiming Opera is following Firefox's tail, when in fact the opposite is true just as much, or more.

As a massive Opera-fan must say, that this blog-post is correct and diplomatic. If other ASA's posts about Opera were non-positive, is the matter of taste. But this I accept as an diplomatic greeting from a competitor. We must see, what is written, not what we guess! Don't require from ASA to be triumphant.

Somehow 'troll' always sounded like a Norwegian word to me.

Sigh.

Anyone who thinks THIS post by Asa is inflammatory or snide is an idiot. Anyone who thinks he's trying to purposefully hinder Opera's progress is also an idiot. His comments are never blatantly deragatory. He never implies Opera is bad product.

I do honestly believe Asa wants Opera to improve, and wishes good things for it.

I think a lot of people defending Asa are missing the point, at least the point that I and maybe a few others are trying to make.

It's NOT about him being critical of Opera at all. It's not about him expressing his opinion. It's about the snide remarks he tends to make, and the subtle things.

"Opera continues to follow firefox's lead" -- Being ad-free was never Firefoxs 'lead'. A simple UI was never firefox's 'lead' either. What's wrong with "Opera continues to improve" or something similar?

The point is that he rarely mentions Opera without mentioning Firefox doing it better, even when that's not relevant or even true. I understand he thinks Firefox is better, that's obvious. But he goes out of his way, almost to make sure people reading his posts know that whatever praises he gives Opera, it's still no firefox!

Now, if he didn't do this almost every time he mentioned Opera, it wouldnt be a big deal.

There is a way to say you think your product is better without subtle jabs. It's called tact. Opera's CEO has it, Asa does not.

But again, anyone who thinks Asa hates Opera or wishes anything bad against it is a complete moron and is reading way to into it.

"I do honestly believe Asa wants Opera to improve, and wishes good things for it."

HeHe...It's a bit hard, isn't it? It would be boring, if it was right. :D

"he goes out of his way, almost to make sure people reading his posts know that whatever praises he gives Opera, it's still no firefox!"

Guess what. I do think that Firefox is better. I do think that Opera is no Firefox. What a surprise. How shocking. Oh my.

"There is a way to say you think your product is better without subtle jabs. It's called tact. Opera's CEO has it, Asa does not."

Ahh, like this tact? "A lot of people don't like our ads, which is sad as we don't have a rich sugar daddy like the Mozilla Foundation."

What a tactful guy.

- A

You mean he wasn't just joking like you were just joking? Whodathunkit.

Well, Asa, you just couldn't resist pouring gasoline on the flames. This is ugly and getting uglier. You could have done the classy thing. I'm sorry you chose otherwise.

How shocking. Oh my.

"What a tactful guy."

-You are quoting the ONLY untactful quote he ever made about mozilla. Find me more, if you can, change my name. ;)

"Guess what. I do think that Firefox is better. I do think that Opera is no Firefox. What a surprise. How shocking. Oh my."

You missed the point. I would think you have better reading comprehension than that.

"Ahh, like this tact? "A lot of people don't like our ads, which is sad as we don't have a rich sugar daddy like the Mozilla Foundation."

What a tactful guy."

You're right there. But that's one instance. You lack tact most of the time you mention Opera.

Argh, didn't mean to hit send yet.

Anyway, I find it quite telling that even though I tried to lay out my points as civil as possible, you chose to address only 2 parts with sarcasm.

I don't mean this as an insult by any means, but as constructive criticism. You need to sit down and address some maturity issues within yourself. They are not anything major or obstructive, but it's always a good thing to try and improve yourself in all aspects.

I wish you luck exploring your inner-self.

Sadly Asa has chosen the "behave like a child mode=on" option so there´s no point in trying to explain him why these blog entries piss people off.

I love both browsers. Its separates when it comes to community behavior. Mozilla members are much more humble and appreciative of what they have, and what they give to the community. Opera members are really high-strung know it alls. I choose a community where I feel at peace. Opera doesnt cut it.

I equate in this situation browsers to Nascar drivers. Mozilla=Dale Earnhardt, Opera=Tony Stewart. Earnhardt rarely complains where he finishes in the race. On the other side of the fence you have Stewart(Opera) who bitches and whines at the slightest little thing. And when they come in second(PCWorld 2005 Award) crys fould and tells their fans they won(or should have) the "race". Extreme example, but truthfull nonetheless. This former Opera user is now where I feel comfortable, and without "drama" in my own community.

" Its separates when it comes to community behavior. Mozilla members are much more humble and appreciative of what they have, and what they give to the community. Opera members are really high-strung know it alls. I choose a community where I feel at peace. Opera doesnt cut it."

Trying to claim one community is better than another is ridiculous. Most people from the Opera community I know are very friendly and very willing to help people. From what I've seen of MozillaZine, it can get hostile, but people are friendly as well.

Also if you base what browser you use on the community alone, your priorities are seriously messed up.

"I equate in this situation browsers to Nascar drivers."

You're using NASCAR in an analogy relating to maturity.. O_o 'Nuff said.

This whole "my browser/e-penis is bigger and better than yours" crap has got to stop. It's all about personal preference.

Both Firefox and Opera do what they are designed to do very well which boils down to simply browsing the web. So instead of all the bitching and infighting going on between the users of both browsers everyone should put their efforts to good use.

Let's focus on things that matter such as increasing standards compliance on the Internet and removing even more market share from Internet Explorer.

> There are a lot of Opera fans that think I don't like Opera (or worse, that I want to see them fail.) That's just not the case.

Asa, when you post articles entitled "opera continues to follow firefox's lead", yet don't post articles entitled "firefox continues to follow opera's lead", despite the fact that Firefox usually implements things after Opera has already done so, you come across as being extremely biased against Opera.

How many times has Opera followed in Firefox's footsteps? I can't thing of more than a couple of things.

How many times has Firefox followed in Opera's footsteps? I can thing of a whole range of things, despite the fact I don't use Opera often.

So when I come here and read "opera continues to follow firefox's lead", the first thing that enters my head is "WTF?!?"

Actions speak louder than words. Stop posting inflammatory articles biased against Opera and following them up with "I'm not biased against Opera" articles. You've a history of doing this, it just makes you look like a dishonest shill, which is a shame, because otherwise you post interesting articles.