Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

Today the Mozilla Foundation announced their plan to combat the incredible threat posed by 24 hours of free Opera registrations: free Firefox upgrades to all users forever. This is an astounding move on Mozilla's part, as they had already been giving away the product for free, as well as the source code to the program with full redistribution and code use rights. Opera refused to comment by press time, but it is speculated they may respond by including free sponsor-related content in a special pane in the toolbars.

I am trying Opera out today with the free registration code - I have been very impressed by the speed (first time I have used it since before Mozilla .8). At that time (before Mozilla .8 - most likely the ads) I just didn't find it as appealing as IE. Today I probably don't find it as appealing as Fx but I want to give it an honest shot (and I know some Opera fanboys will be on here to flame Asa soon - I saw this post coming since this morning). Any way, on to my real point...

I am so used to having tabs (or MDIs - whatever Opera calls them) underneath my URL bar and back and forth buttons that it is hard for me to browse this way. Is there a way to change that? Is there a way to turn off that pop-down every time I go to the address bar? Other thoughts would be nice.

Asa,
If Opera is going to continue as a company, they will have to monetize their property in some manner. How do you suggest doing this if they stop A )selling the product, and B) selling their freeloader’s eyeballs?
Come to think on it: you’re paid by FF, yes? How on Earth do you stay in Ipod money?

Please, don't start on the Opera being free thing. Let's think about it for a moment.
Opera's free already, first of all. You just need to pay to register it and remove the ads, and get support.

Let's not forget that Mozilla offers paid support for $40 as well. For students, Opera is only $15. The paid support is included in that price.

Also, Opera is NOT becoming more like Firefox. I would switch from Opera if it became more like Firefox, because I strongly dislike Firefox's interface.

Now, let's think of the consequences of becoming free without ads.

First of all, they would have to do it for the next version, Opera 9.0, which probably isn't coming out any time soon. If they did it for 8.0, they'd have to refund everyone that bought it, or give them some kind of advantage since some people may complain (I personally wouldn't. I bought it to support the company).
Second of all, they'd lose all the revenue that comes from the Desktop browser. Even though this isn't as much revenue as the Mobile version, it is still a good amount.

tim: you can change the interface any way you like. To remove the pop-down thing, right click the bars and click customize. Uncheck the Start bar.
To move the address bar to above the tabs, go to that same Customize dialog, enable the Main bar, and move everything in the Address bar to the Main bar. Arrange the buttons any way you like. Then disable the address bar.

I gave the free trial a whirl, and was immediately reminded of why I wont be switching browsers anytime soon: Adblock!

See a couple of screenshots at:
http://weblog.wlkr.net/archives/2005/08/wheres_my_adblock.html

If I were to compare IE7, Opera8, Firefox1.5:
- Speed, I dont give a damn. My PC is fast enough to run either of them.
- Download size: whoa, my HDD is not even at 25%
- Licensing: Again, I'm not a developer, I dont care if its GPL or not
- Cost: Yes, I do care. No way I'm paying for something when others are free
- User Experience: This is the biggie. No way can I live without adblock anymore. Just compare the two screenshots! Only one of them is readable.

One more thing: Mozilla didnt employ the developer of adblock (rue), or the developer of quicknote (jed). They worked on it in their own free time! I guess that's the beauty of firefox's extensibility and that of open source in general.

Too bad firefox's marketing does not highlight user experience, adblock in particular. Now each of IE7, O8, Fx2 will have tabbed browsing, working RSS, working password managers, working search etc. Its the big-impact user-experience differences that would separate the men from the boys.

And thanks to Filterset.G Updater, my mum can use Adblock maintenancelessly (oh, it's a word).

Opera's giving... Opera away for free for two days, but it's not annual. This is a tenth birthday celebration, so Opera is actually 1/1826.5 as free as Firefox (accounting for three February 29ths, of course).

Having said all that, a visit to Opera.com is always entertaining - just what *will* they Photoshop onto Captain Opera next?

Opera has adblock, vfwlkr. Check out http://nontroppo.org/wiki/OperaAdblock

There is also a file called filter.ini you can edit for a similar thing to adblock. http://www.schrode.net/opera/url_filtering/ for details.

You also might want to look into http://www.operaadfilter.com/

Also check out http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2005/01/opera-and-firefox-extensions

There are many ways to block ads using Opera.

Ah, but there is a way Opera can have its cake and eat it too.

Drop the ads. Remove features deemed unneccessary for the average joe (thus creating Opera Firefox*). Release at no charge. Opera now has a free-as-in-beer browser to compete with Mozilla Firefox and Internet Explorer.

The full-featured, Opera with all the bells and whistles available for charge.

(*Sorry, couldn't resist. I'd imagine there are several features that would give Opera a leg up on the competition though, seriously.)

Tom: Haarvard (an Opera rep) has repeatedly stated that Opera has no plans to offer a "lite" or "crippled" version of Opera. They've clearly ruled out the lite/pro approach.

Louis: it's about perception -- adware may be free of charge, but something that makes you see ads seems less free. Think of it like network TV -- you can get it for free, but if you have Tivo, you'll still want to skip the commercials. Whether it should be or not, it is a major stumbling block for a lot of people who might otherwise consider Opera. You might be surprised how many people on Slashdot today commented "Well, since it's free, I tried it out..."

That said, Opera is apparently planning to announce a "new business model for the desktop" soon. Speculation has run rampant, but of course everyone's thoughts have gone to removing the ads. That's why I expect whatever it is will come out of left field.

There are many ways to make money on software. The options aren't just adware, direct purchase, and Free with a capital F. Just look at Wikipedia's entry on freeware for some examples of business models based around free distribution. The person paying for it doesn't necessarily have to be the end-user. For example, end-users on cell phones typically don't buy the browser directly from Opera, it's pre-installed by the manufacturer who licenses it from Opera. Given the amount of software PC vendors pre-install, that might be a viable approach in the PC sphere.

I had another comment, but Asa's moderation thing blocked it. It was a post providing links to Opera adblock addons.
Tom: that would be crippleware, and Opera Software hates crippleware. Opera will be made free before they release a desktop version of Opera lacking features.

I think it's moderating anything with links in it. In theory both of our posts should show up once Asa looks through the moderation queue, but since I have no idea whether they will show up in order...

Tom: What Louis said.
Louis: The ads do deter people from trying it. Think of it like network TV -- you get it for free, but if you have Tivo, you'll still want to skip the commercials. There were a lot of "Well, since it's free today, I'll try it" comments on Slashdot today.

Opera is apparently planning on a "new business model" for the desktop browser. That could mean ad-free, or it could mean something else entirely. There are *many* ways to make money off of software, and the end-user isn't necessarily the one who'll be paying.

Louis, (or any opera user), please post a link to opera's adblocking feature in the mozillazine thread. I'd be glad to test it out.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=311638&

Thanks

Ironically, Asa Dotzler is speaking as an employee of Mozilla.corp so the correct wording would be: Firefox is moving into Opera´s direction in order to make money. Different business models, same goal.

It seems that Mozilla itself doesn´t give a ratass about Asa´s opinions regarding business models (remember last time he explained his *theories* about business models and how Mozilla.org was doing the right thing because profit was not a goal...well, now we have Mozilla.corp) so this blog entry is as relevant as Asa´s opinion about PRÊT À PORTER.

On a side note, Mozilla want to make money with FF and Asa gets paid by Mozilla.corp (obviously, many FF contributors do they work for free, I guess they are not as important as Asa). I´m looking forward to see Asa working for free.

Mhhh, i bought Novell products... and Netscape products... both are contributing to Mozilla - cross-financed by their other business sectors.

Please Asa, don't paint the world so black and white. There is no free lunch.

You can just see the collective rush for the toilets when this news broke in MozillaLand!

W.

I've tried Opera 8.02 with the free code, but I'm still not too impressed with it. I'm not really fond of their "out-of-box" experience, with the large icons and the drop-down toolbar that shows everytime I click in the address bar. The only thing that should drop down from the address bar is a list of recently used sites IMO. I think they even provide too many icons and toolbars considering that they are a "tabbed browser" UI. Sure, I can customize these things, but there are a few things I still can't do: I can't move the address bar in the menu bar like I can in FF or IE6, and there is no separator like in the other browsers. The closest is a fixed space, but that still looks ugly.

I use Opera mostly for web developing, but I don't think I could use Opera on a daily basis. I just like Firefox so much and all the extensions.

Just tried out Opera sans-advertising, I still can't say it grabs me. Considering how much the "extra choice and features" are always hyped, it doesn't seem to offer me anything more than Firefox in the areas that matter.

Admittedly, before the flames start flying, this is comparing Opera to the upcoming Firefox 1.5 nightlies, but when all is said and done, what I want out of the box is a functional tabbed browser. If there's better tabbed browsing options in Opera than Firefox, I sure couldn't find them. The speed difference is now also totally negligible, including back/forward navigation.

The UI might look simpler out of the box (and it is) but that doesn't stop it being awkward as hell. I disagree with you Asa, there's plenty more than the price to worry about.

I don't get it. Or well... let's say some of the posters here don't get it. They probably even think that a "no-profit" organization isn't allowed to take any money. And the money the mozcorp tries to achieve is profit.
So, all the profit made is used to support or develop Firefox and all the Mozilla family. So, if hey earn money it'll be used to support Firefox. How to support Firefox? Pay some good developers for developing it. Sure, they wouldn't need to get paid, but tehn they'd have to work somewhere else, which's reducing their free developing time dramatically.
The Mozilla foundation does not earn money due selling, but well, due support for companys. And that was the reason the Coporation was founded - to be able to act with partners easier, this is mostly due law and because of "human opinion" (no profit=no "real" partner in hte people's mind). Since the Foundation is the parent node (hehe ;)) of the corp., the chance that the corp is loosing their target is quite low.

You seem to be forgetting one thing: Opera allows you to change the entire layout the way you want it.

I was a diehard Firefox user and never liked Opera's default layout. The adds I could live with, but I decided not to since, well, there seemed to be a better option in the form of Fx. And, boy, was I wrong! Yesterday I got my registration code for free and decided to give Opera a shot - a shot longer than three minutes, as I did so far. Little by little, I discovered a number of Opera's little gems, and I'm sure there are plenty more to follow.

I already did a complete overhaul of its interface (went to MDI mode, placed the tab bar below the window, found a great native skin) and was shocked to find things like mouse gestures running oh-so-smoothly, tab rearrangement, the F12 key and the like. After finding about filter.ini, I no longer have any ads in the pages. OK, it's a bit more clumsy than Adblock, but it works exactly like I want it to. It's not like it's something that I'll be changing often, if ever more.

I don't know what Fx 1.5 will look like, but for now, it's "Goodbye Firefox". I found Opera to be faster and less resource-intensive, and it puts me into control. I like that. In fact, I like that so much that I'm now beginning to ask myself why I didn't give Opera a real chance before.

Kudos to Opera software - you got yourselves another user, one that will even pay for Opera 9.0 should it not be ad-free. Unless Fx 1.5 gets drastically better, I'm not going back, that's for sure.

Yeah, it was pretty funny to see all those Mozillazine and Slashdot people rushing for their free registration codes of Opera :) A good software will defend itself, it doesn't need to attack competitors...

It's pretty sad Asa Dotzler can't resist to comment meanly every-single-move of Opera Software. I think it is some kind of Opera complex. It only makes him look silly and unproffessional, he makes a bad PR job for Mozilla here.

>

An assertion about the market isn't "commenting meanly". Asa said that he doesn't believe that a for-pay browser can take substantial market share. Considering that Opera is still very much a minority browser, the available statistics appear to agree.

>

It's a personal weblog, not a Mozilla PR weblog. Being able to state your uncensored opinions on the Internet is important, so don't moan about it because you disagree with his.

Truth be told, mr. Dotzler and his comments are one of the reasons I finally gave Opera a shot. I just needed to see what he's constantly bashing - and now I know. He's bashing a GREAT browser, and that's probably the reason for all the things he wrote. It's the good ol' "grapes are sour" story (pun intended - y'know, Fire*FOX*, heh heh).

Mind you, I still find it funny that a guy gets paid for not doing any real work while the majority of the Fx community contributes their time and skills for free, and he still has the guts to bash a company that makes a living out of making software.

I'm very eager to hear him say "from this day onwards, I'll no longer accept my current paycheck from the MoCorp[1] and I'll start programming to really help Fx".

[1] The "corporation" stuff seems very evil. I'm more and more convinced that Mozilla is in this for the money, the top executives wanting to get rich on other people's time and work.

P.S. I've just discovered newsfeeds in Opera! Extremely cool, and I can even make a three-column layout, just like in Outlook! And I can transfer tabs/pages between separate Opera windows! My God, this piece of software doesn't stop to amaze me! :D

Asa, you state that Opera should become more like Mozilla. That is something that is not going to happen. It is a company not an organisation. All companies aim (unlike organisations) to sell a product and achieve a profit at the end of the day. Opera have therefore an obligation to ensure that they maximise profits and keep the stockholders happy. Giving away a free browser would cripple them and directly get any stockholder miffed. I doubt that Opera would want to do that, don’t you? Come on dude, that is simple business logic.

The fact that Opera is a company aiming to achieve a profitable forecast and turnover makes any suggestion to having a "free" product a completely unrealistic and a ludicrous proposition. I would have thought that would have been easy for all to see. It seems to have been looked over though. Why would Opera want to give it away free without adverts? Who would pay for the programmers, who would please the shareholders and so forth? Be more realistic people, and try not to be a sheep in this herd that you seem to have been drawn into. Remember, Opera do not accept donations.

Opera is celebrating 10 years and all you can do is put them down? They are giving away free licenses as thanks to all of those who helped them. Be more grateful. I’m pretty sure you got a free license too Asa.

The Opera browser is small, nifty and feature packed - more so than that of Firefox in its vanilla state and Opera is still 3.67mb in size; significantly smaller than Firefox's 4.7mb. Quite a warthog for what is just only a browser.

Just my $0.02c.

Oh Dear, another stupid Post by Asa which prevents me from give FF a try.

"Mind you, I still find it funny that a guy gets paid for not doing any real work while the majority of the Fx community contributes their time and skills for free, and he still has the guts to bash a company that makes a living out of making software."

QA is real work. Unless you actually follow development closely (which you apparently don't), I don't think you're in a position to judge Mozilla.org staff or their contributions to the project.

"The "corporation" stuff seems very evil. I'm more and more convinced that Mozilla is in this for the money, the top executives wanting to get rich on other people's time and work."

Sorry, you missed the conspiracy bandwagon weeks ago. Try actually reading some posts about this. Nobody is getting rich because of the deal - end of story.

"Asa, you state that Opera should become more like Mozilla. That is something that is not going to happen. It is a company not an organisation."

Ding ding. Wrong answer. Asa said that Opera (the product) is becoming more like Firefox (the product, not Mozilla - the company). By hiding 70% of the interface of previous Opera versions by default, this is actually the case. The result is that when you open Opera for the first time, you don't need a FAQ to use it.

"Opera have therefore an obligation to ensure that they maximise profits and keep the stockholders happy. Giving away a free browser would cripple them and directly get any stockholder miffed."

You mean apart from the whole corporate sponsorship thing that sustains Mozilla while they provide their product for free?

"Opera is celebrating 10 years and all you can do is put them down?"
"Oh Dear, another stupid Post by Asa which prevents me from give FF a try."

There was a put-down here?

****

Please note that things you say on the Internet remain for the duration. If you're going to say something stupid and unfounded (like "Asa is attacking Opera" or "Asa shouldn't say these things because he works for Mozilla!") you might want to think twice.

****

oh yeah "moving in the right direction by becoming more like Firefox ..." is a kinda put-down. actually opera was aware of the gui complexity and was about to fix it back in the 2004 without asking asa for advise.

just because they did it step by step doesn't mean that opera is moving towards Firefox.

In fact i see Opera and Firefox working side by side in the (near?) future.

"actually opera was aware of the gui complexity and was about to fix it back in the 2004 without asking asa for advise."

Well, good for them! (So what?)

...and IE7 being pushed out early has nothing to do with Firefox either :-)

Thanks Asa for posting about the free keys... I didn't know I could get one, but now I've finally made the transition from Firefox to Opera :)

I couldn't stand the ads, but now they are gone and there's nothing stopping me from ditching Firefox.

Also Asa, badmouthing your competitors like that is very bad form. One of the reasons I can't stand using Firefox anymore.

"Opera comes with a default list of search engines, stored in a file called "search.ini". It is possible to edit this file to change or add searches, but this is an unsupported feature, and Opera will usually overwrite custom search.ini files when you upgrade to a new version, to ensure that the list of search engines is correct."

?!? I can't edit my own quick searches without Opera wiping them out later because they aren't "correct"!?!?!?

Wow. I don't know what to say. I guess only Opera knows what's correct for me.

[Adding quick search bookmarks ala Fx doesn't work in Opera--e.g., adding http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=%s as a bookmark with the nickname m will only remind you why Opera knows best.]

Reading these comments is a wonderful exercise in bias. Opera lovers, go read Asa's post again.

Ben: QA may be real work, but what exactly does Asa (and the MoCorp) do in terms of it? Remember the recent "oh noez, my extensionz brokez0rz!" flop? What kind of QA lets that kind of product revision on the market?

Asa is getting paid. He gets real money (probably lots of it), and hundreds of Fx developers don't. They do it for fun, most probably. Yet Asa takes every opportunity he can to write something like "Opera should be free and open-source". For God's sake, Opera is a company that lives through selling software. Their developers need to feed their families. MoCorp gets funded (generously), and pays ONLY the top staff, not those people who actually make Fx what it is. As I said earlier, I'd like to see mr. Dotzler renounce his paychecks and do his QA job for free - THEN he'd have the moral right to blog about OSS, evil Opera and all that yadda yadda.

I was a Firefox user; not a fanboy, but just an avid user, for almost two years. I now use Opera because - guess what - it's BETTER. It's worth the money. I've been seriously using it for less than a day, and I can already tell it's an awesome piece of software that almost can't be compared to Fx. Even though I got my registration code for free, I'm buying a license. I'm reading Opera-related stuff all around the web, and for anything, it seems not that Opera is copying Firefox, but the other way around - people create extensions to mimic what Opera has had for years.

That's my view as a slight power user who has never had any software deities and doesn't qualify as a fanboy of any kind. I use software that's good, and I'm prepared to pay for it because my comfort is worth more than my money. Opera gives me comfort, and I can only feel stupid for not choosing it earlier.

Reading these comments is a wonderful exercise in bias. Opera lovers, go read Asa's post again.

I've been saying that for months. No one seemed to listen back then, and I don't expect anyone to start listening now. More's the pity. Otherwise we could actually have constructive conversations. More "I like Opera/Firefox because..." instead of "I hate Opera/Firefox because..." or "U suk!"

I seriously hope someone at Mozilla staff could stop this madness from Asa Dotzler; bashing, childish behaviour and naive comments about other company´s business model doesn´t make any good to the community and makes Mozilla look very unprofessional.

*sigh* Thank you, "Shocked," for proving my point.

Asa,

How would they pay their employees then?

TarGz: Opera is moving in the direction of UI simplicity and usability. Firefox is based around the same goal. That's how I interpret "moving in the right direction by becoming more like Firefox". Besides, being more like Firefox is only insulting if you think Firefox is a bad product. Asa clearly doesn't, so surely that's a compliment (even if you dislike it).

In short:
- Opera can take simplicity and usability hints from Firefox.
- Firefox can take potential feature tips from Opera.
- This means that the browser part of Opera and Firefox will become closer.
- I think everyone can probably agree that this is a good thing for everyone.

"In fact i see Opera and Firefox working side by side in the (near?) future."

There's already decent communication for security issues and web standards, I'm sure that relationship leaks into features and UI discussion as well.

"Also Asa, badmouthing your competitors like that is very bad form. One of the reasons I can't stand using Firefox anymore."

That's a somewhat ridiculous reason to not use a product. Whatever happened to technical merit, or how well something gets the job done for you?

"MoCorp gets funded (generously), and pays ONLY the top staff, not those people who actually make Fx what it is. As I said earlier, I'd like to see mr. Dotzler renounce his paychecks and do his QA job for free - THEN he'd have the moral right to blog about OSS, evil Opera and all that yadda yadda."

Asa did QA as a volunteer years ago before being hired. Either way, being paid doesn't somehow remove anyone's right to free speech or an opinion. You're on Asa's blog reading Asa's thoughts. If you don't like what he has to say, why are you staying here and objecting to it?

People don't volunteer to work on Firefox because they want to get paid, they do it because they enjoy it or want to get a pet bug fixed. Nonetheless, plenty of volunteers have been hired in the last few years and that process will continue.

I'm a little confused to be honest, are you asking that Mozilla pays people per bug fix? If not, where do you draw the line as to who gets paid for volunteering?

I don't really see the incentive anyway, when they're offering you and every other volunteer out there a product for free, use of their resources to work on the product (LXR, Bugzilla, Bonsai, Tinderbox, automated builds) and the opportunity to discuss things directly with the main developers.

On the subject of making the browser free vs. making money and paying employees -- it's not an either/or thing. Mozilla gives Firefox away for free but still manages to pay its employees, mainly (as I understand it) through deals with business partners and donations from companies that have an interest in using Firefox or seeing it succeed.

Please look up the term "false dichotomy," then come back.

There are many ways Opera could give away their browser for free and still pay their employees. The link I posted above to the Wikipedia article on freeware has several ideas. The question is, of course, whether Opera will find one that works for their purposes. Clearly, the ad-supported version with optional registration has worked out better than the 30-day trial did back in the pre-5.0 days, but I think Asa's assertion that making the browser *entirely* free would increase the user base is borne out by the number of people who took advantage of yesterday's free reg codes.

The in-browser ads aren't Opera's only source of revenue. Opera may not have much share of the desktop market, but they are a major player in the mobile and embedded markets. If they really wanted to, they could subsidize the desktop version with the license fees paid by Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung, etc (I forget exactly which phones use Opera) for every mobile device that ships with Opera installed.

*sigh* Thank you, Kelson, for proving how fanboyism blinds people´s minds.

Asa,

IE is not free.
If you want the latest IE you have to have the latest windows os, that is realy stupid.

Schocked: How many Firefox fanboys would set up an alternative browser advocacy site that promotes both Firefox and Opera (along with a bunch of other browsers)?

Obviously I disagree with Asa that Firefox is now a "mainstream browser" -- I think it still has a ways to go before it can make that claim -- but just because I don't see an attack on Opera in this post doesn't mean I'm blinded by fanboyism.

Kelson,

Well, you must be the first one...

Just because you have a webpage promoting alternative browsers doesn´t mean that your views about this madness are correct. You should be worried about Asa´s nonsensical behaviour because it´s not good for Mozilla and alternatives browsers in general. This is not the way of doing things and beat IE.

P.S Obviously, you don´t agree with me but saying such a pointless thing as "*sigh* Thank you, "Shocked," for proving my point." and try to make it look like an argument is what a Fanboy would do...

For the first time I tried Opera. Well, it was free without ads so why not?

I have to say I'm impressed. Pages load very fast! It cruises the Internet very very smoothly and so quick. Even quicker and smoother than Firefox... =o(

It scrolls up and down pages very smoothly too, something Firefox needs improvement on (sometimes in Firefox the wheel mouse control stops responding slightly until you manually move the scroll bar). I actually quite like Opera. It does have a lot of features and way too many options though that I don't want.

A lot of pages also render with very very small font. I can't seem to find how to adjust this properly, as zoom does work but will then distort images and other areas of a page. Not good.

So, I like it, it will remained installed alongside Firefox, my default.

"Opera is moving in the direction of UI simplicity and usability."

yes they do, indeed. but the reason they do it is not because Asa Dotzler said they should do so, rather it was the opera community. so they move in their own direction.

"Firefox is based around the same goal."

fine, let's move together.

Besides, being more like Firefox is only insulting if you think Firefox is a bad product.

i don't think Firefox is bad. i'm rather pissed off by the way he said it. like opera would never make it without Asa's advice.

I didn't mention my website to prove my claim -- that would be silly. Anyone can put up a website. I just wanted to demonstrate that my opinion isn't based solely on shallow fanboyism.

Well, that and the fact that the people posting here are my target audience. This internecine flamewar crap is why I started the site in the first place.

I think some of the Opera fans posting here are assuming Asa must be attacking Opera simply because he's Asa. If you look at the post without that assumption, it comes off as a mild dig, some complements and observations, and a suggestion.

The same thing happens in politics. Someone will say something, and then people will evaluate it based on who said it instead of what was said. As an example (and let's not get sidetracked), I was amazed at the number of people who suddenly came out against space exploration as soon as Bush advocated returning to the moon.

2 more things Opera don't do:

(1) Find as you type without having to hit / or .

(2) Focus the address bar on startup. What else do I open a browser for?

Oh and

www.%s.org and www.%s.net as well as www.%s.com

Pick one and you're stuck with it.

For all you Opera fanboys complaining that all Asa does on his _personal blog_ is "bash Opera", you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror. People like you are the single reason I will never use that browser.

O' Captain My Captain:

(1) Find as you type without having to hit / or .

Sure you can. In the advanced tab of preferences, go to "Shortcuts" and edit your keyboard hotkeys to make the function "find inline, 1" to activate with whatever key you want.

"For all you Opera fanboys complaining that all Asa does on his _personal blog_ is "bash Opera", you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror. People like you are the single reason I will never use that browser."

Oh well - your loss.

Glad to see this move by Opera is converting people. Also, it's great to see even Firefox users are starting to see Asa's childish antics for what they are.

Instead of "good move, Opera, for trying to get your browser to the masses, happy anniversery!" it's another "why Firefox will always be better than Opera" post.

Unbelievably predictable.

Oh, and one more thing - the MyOpera forums had ~5000 new members sign up yesterday.

188,235 members (August 31)
183,446 members (August 30)

http://www.big-boards.com/board/646/

Be afraid, Asa - be very afraid.

FrostDust:

To be more explicit,

Find as you type without having to hit / or . or use some shortcut (any shortcut).

I have discovered that this

"Oh and

www.%s.org and www.%s.net as well as www.%s.com

Pick one and you're stuck with it."

is slightly incorrect--you can add multiple endings, and Opera will try them in the order you specify...

just why? Opera has a gazillion shortcut keys, why not allow shortcuts for these?

And why can't you--seemingly--edit the basic tab-clicking options, like ctrl+shift+click on a link?

So anyway, at Opera's free invitation, I tried out their browser. I was really impressed overall. A ton of sweet features. Nothing I can't do with Firefox, but still, really impressive.

I do think the default install is a bit of toolbar overkill, and their help files are out-of-date or unhelpful (though http://operalover.tntluoma.com/8/ is linked from their community page, and is actually somewhat helpful).

Also, umo, despite all its craziness does seem more useful than Opera's community page. There seem to be a number of good third-party additions to Opera available off-site, but I prefer to know that somebody I can trust at least looked at extensions/addons/whathaveyou's before I install them.

The specific issues (1. use nicknames for quick searches [Opera like IE here], 2. find as you type without using any shortcut-just type what you're looking for, 3. focus the address field on startup [again, like IE here], 4. use shortcut keys for server name completion [and here], 5. edit mouse-clicking shortcuts [not mouse gesture shortcuts] [and here]) just drives Opera over the edge for me.

I'll probably keep it around, but that's about it.

> 2. find as you type without using any shortcut-just type what you're looking for

you can't just type whatever you want. the reason is "spatial navigation" that opera implements. you can jump link by link by pressing the "a" key, cycle through headers in page (S and W), Cycle through elements in page (D and E) ... see the help file for further information.

Ben: If people want to develop Fx for their own fun and joy, more power to them! All I'm saying is that just because someone does something for free, doesn't mean that those who don't should be looked down onto, especially if the one who does the looking-down indeed gets enough money to make a living.

Firefox has been,is, and probably will always be buggier than Opera because of the ineffective coordination of Firefox releases with current extensions, and other "esoteric" reasons having more to do with faulty code than with "added" code in the form of extensions. This is not necesarily negative however. The FF development is intensive, meaning "we don't have time to verify everything before releases", which seems to apply especially to extensions, themes, etc. That would be a pretty good and understandable excuse if Opera had the same problems. But it simply doesn't.

I use ALL browsers except IE. This includes Mozilla, Opera, SeaMonkey (for bug squishing contributions and testing), and Galeon, Epiphany, Konqueror on Linux. I use Firefox, Opera, and SeaMonkey on Windows and occasionally Mozilla.

I have had many crashes and freezes with Firefox stable releases and nightlies. Same for Mozilla. Never with Galeon, even though it requires the "engine". Not one with Opera on either Linux or Windows.

SO Asa... Keep up the good work. Keep telling everyone how Linux isn't ready for the "average user" and how good Windows is with the notable exception of IE. And if you succeed, maybe Microsoft will BUY Firefox from you all and make you all rich.

Without the first line of the post, it would have been fine. The first line, however, is most definitely a needless jam at Opera. It's Asa's right to say it, but it makes him look bad and is obviously turning people off from Firefox. He doesn't seem to care though.

You seem to find every chance you get to bash Opera for whatever reason you seem to find. I guarantee you, if I stop using Firefox, it will be because of you. That first sentence is nothing but a cheap shot from someone who seems way too confident. Worry less about Opera and more about Firefox. Maybe that way, the beta wouldn't, once again, be released later than originally scheduled.

Seriously, give up with the mudlsinging. Making flase claims like Opera is becoming more like firefox is blatant lies and trollish. It's people like you, Asa, that give fanboys their labels. Oh, and here's news for you: Firefox is far from mainstream.

Is a knot or few loose in your head? Opera is a product, it's their business, it's something they SELL. So ofcourse they aren't going to listen to you and make it a free browser forever, they make money out of it. And don't even think of giving me that crap about how Opera only aims to make money and not provide the service -- that claim you made is just about as absurd as you and your constant mudslinging over a browser who'se innovations you cannot wait to rip off and call your's.

A lot of firefox dev's are level headed people, and I appreciated them, but not you asa. You, asa, can go and join the firefox zealots, fanboys..it's people like you who make me feel disgusted with using firefox, knowing it has such a mentality behind the browser is depressing.

Grow up.

But guys ...Asa is totally innocent. He would never do such a thing. So what he mentions Opera 2, 3, 4 times a month - it's innocent, seriously!

"I just read that Opera Software is giving away free copies of the Opera 8 browser for one day - and one day only. I guess that makes Opera about 1/365th as free as Firefox which is available every day of the year at no cost."

;) wink wink

Grow up Opera trolls

Normally I just lurk on Asa’s blog reading what he posts and what comments people write. I especially stay out of Opera vs. Firefox arguments because I never had Opera before. Well, thanks to both PCWorld and Asa, I found the free Opera registration site and got my registered copy of Opera. Here are my feelings about the whole topic.

Opera is a great product. Even if Mozilla released Firefox 10.0 in seven years, it would only be a shadow of what Opera 8.02 is today and would never compare to what Opera will have out in the future. Opera is a polished, beautiful system. Its rendering engine and stability are far superior to Firefox’s. That said, I have a few issues with Opera.

First:
Let’s get some definitions straight:
-Internet Explorer is “complimentary” to the Windows OS in the same way the ugly shirt from your older relative is complimentary to the five dollars in the gift box: to get the five dollars, you have thank said relative for ugly shirt and wear it to every family reunion.
-Mozilla Firefox is “free”: you get exactly what you pay for, for better or worse.
-Opera is “crippleware”: the ad bar shrinks the size of the browser window, it cripples the positive experience of Opera, and with all the blinking; I’m surprised there wasn’t an epileptic seizer warning.

Second:
Program-wise, Opera vs. Firefox is an apples to oranges comparison as Opera is a suite and Firefox is only a browser. Opera vs. Mozilla Suite vs. Netscape is an apples to apples to apples comparison as these are all suites. Opera, when compared to the others, is by far the most superior. It is a powerful, high quality product. That said, suites aren’t exactly popular with users now days. Netscape barely registers on statistics and Mozilla dropped production on the Mozilla Suite leaving it to independent programmers to continue the work. Opera is a product that people are just not interested in.

Third:
The type of person who uses Opera and Firefox is different. Opera is a power user’s suite. It is for those users who want control over every detail and to be able to tweak every setting no matter how mundane. Firefox is a just above average user’s browser. Opera serves a very, very small niche of users. It is sort of like car owners. If every car owner had enough money to purchase, buy the gas, cover the maintenance, and pay the insurance; how many would buy a Ferrari? Maybe some more than normal, but most car owners would buy a half decent car and stick the extra money into something else.

I remember working in a computer lab. Most computer users are computer illiterates that believe that if they type in their problems on a keyboard, the magical and mysterious tower next to the monitor will divine their needs and connect to the mystical realm of cyberspace, and then the monitor will magically show the solution to their problem. When there work gets lost or the computer breaks, shaman/computer lab workers like myself would be expected to do a “rain dance” and fix the problem. If that didn’t work, I would end up playing psychiatrist to help them through their loss. These type of people aren’t power users that would use Opera. In fact, most of these people would be too ignorant and scared to use Firefox.

Fourth:
The state of the whole browser experience is not that great. I don’t know which Mozilla comment site said it, but right now the browser market is about “my browser experience is less worse than the other guys.” Its like Internet Explorer is a turd and Firefox and Opera are bronzed turds fighting over who are best. All three provide a view of the Internet through a browser window. Both Firefox and Opera also provide a tabbed browsing experience. The separation between Opera and Firefox is a paper or plastic question: Do I want a power user suite that accesses the same Internet or do I want a moderately simple browser that accesses the same Internet?

The problem is that Opera charges $20.00 than any browser is currently worth, no matter what it brings. It’s like Opera things their turd is gold-plated. Yes, Opera has a lot of options, but that doesn’t mean that it is worth $40.00. This is especially true since Opera doesn’t deliver the Internet in any way truly different than Firefox or Internet Explorer.

Fifth:
The first rule of marketing is that you are marketing a solution not a product. Opera Software is marketing a product. A multi-option, more powerful [insert Tim Allen-like grunts], power users wet dream product. But in the end it is just that, a product. One can look at and ask, “What does it do? How will it help me?”

Firefox is marketed as a solution to the insecure, archaic Internet Explorer experience. The Mozilla presents it as a simple, understandable alternative. Blogs like Asa’s and Mozilla Developer News offer opportunity to add to the Firefox experience. The Mozilla Community and Spread Firefox sell the Firefox Attitude and Firefox Lifestyle. And Blake Ross offers the vision of Firefox as the first in many steps toward software solutions that are actual solutions for one’s mom or grandma.

Conclusion:
Opera is a superior product. But that isn’t enough to make Opera the top suite in the browser market because users don’t seem interested in suites. Opera is a power users dream, but most users aren’t power users or even computer literate. Furthermore, Opera connects to the same Internet as Firefox and doesn’t deliver a new experience in delivering the same websites and webpages. Finally Opera Software sells a product not a solution.

As John C Dvorak, in his February 8, 2005, PC Magazine article “The Practical Superiority of HD-DVD”, practical superiority supersedes all other forms of superiority. In the Betamax vs. VHS wars, VHS’s practical superiority of more hours tipped consumers toward it. Practical superiority can also apply to Firefox vs. Opera. Firefox has a practical superiority of being a free, out-of-the-box browser to Opera’s crippleware, option-headache version or Opera’s $40.00, option-headache version.

Nice post !!

To sum it up, Opera is a superior product, but Firefox is a superior solution?

I would agree to that.

Exclamation marks: You hit the nail right on the head. As said earlier on this blog, I was an Fx user. Opera's marketing lacks agression, and yes, they advertise a product, not a solution, which is why I haven't really tried using Opera before. The default interface is still extremely kludgy in the sense of "look what we can do!", not "here, use it!" like Firefox's is. I guess that's something they could/should work on. However, once you get past it and realize how incredibly configurable Opera's UI is, you get huge benefits.

I installed Opera on my parents' PC as well (they're elderly people, nearing 60), replacing Firefox, but I've trimmed it down to the bone, moving all navigation buttons to their own toolbar, like in IE, and leaving the address bar containing Google, IMDB and Amazon search, as well as zoom (which they like very, very, VERY, *VERY* much due to their age and bad vision). I could've left Firefox, but since my parents are not technically savvy and won't be installing a new version (there are lots of security holes fixed in each new Fx version and they read about them on news portals), I decided to go with a simpler and more secure solution. Not a single complaint from them; in fact, three things shocked me.

First, they liked how Opera ran faster. Upon further investigation, it was Opera's memory cache and instant back/forward. Second, they liked the name, and said it was classy and classical (uhm? whatever...). Third, they found out about mouse gestures themselves and they're ecstatic about them! They're showing them to me, as if I don't know they exist, with a smile on their face that can be compared to a child's one when it gets a puppy or a birthday cake. I also introduced my parents to newsfeeds and so far they like them very much (Live Bookmarks skipped their attention, which is not strange considering how they work), and I'm curious as to how this experiment will go.

So, not bad. Now there are three more happy people in the world ;)

That was a lot of words for "Opera is the best! But Firefox will appeal to more people because it's free."

:-P

What's this thing with Opera's configurability...I guess as if it's something Fx doesn't have?

Confused: That's correct.

Please explain. I've used both. What can you configure in Opera that you can't in Fx?

"[Opera] is for those users who want control over every detail and to be able to tweak every setting no matter how mundane. Firefox is a just above average user’s browser."

See this sounds opposite to me.

Full access to code is absolute control.

This is where I got confused I think.

The people talking about the configurability of Opera don't sound like power users of either Fx or Opera to me. They sound like people satisfied to work through the preferences/options menus. Not Regular People, but not power users either. Probably people who don't use alphas, betas, or nightlies. I don't know.

Confused: I'm talking about Opera's UI. With Firefox, you're pretty much stuck with what you get by default, but with Opera, you can rearrange it in almost any way.

As for source code - what am I to do with it? It's useful for a very small number of people (maybe a couple of hundred, but I wouldn't bet on that much), and not in any way for the rest.

Also, what should I do with alphas, betas, nightlies, branches, trunks and whatever else? I'm a user, not a tester. If I want to configure something, yes, I open the Preferences dialog. That's why people invented UI.

The only reason people use Opera is for testing.

So really by configurability, we're talking configurability for the In-between People: Opera has more configuriability for the In-between People.

That I would agree with.

"Grow up Opera trolls"

Calling me an Opera troll is like calling Bill Gates an Apple troll. Think before speaking.

"So really by configurability, we're talking configurability for the In-between People: Opera has more configuriability for the In-between People."

Fx: (1) Regular People, (2) Power Users, (3) Super-Power Users [will edit code if desired]

Opera: (1) Regular People if someone sets it up for them, (2) In-between People, and (3) Power Users.

Both browsers could benefit from a set-up option, alterable at a later point:

==
User mode:

* Regular Person
* In-between Person
* Power User

==

Of course, with different terms (:

Super-Power Users would, I presume, set up Fx as a Power User and go from there. They might and do choose Opera nonetheless, at least at times, for any number of reasons (I don't feel like messing with the code, etc.)

"Posted by bangbang023: You seem to find every chance you get to bash Opera for whatever reason you seem to find. I guarantee you, if I stop using Firefox, it will be because of you. That first sentence is nothing but a cheap shot from someone who seems way too confident. Worry less about Opera and more about Firefox. Maybe that way, the beta wouldn't, once again, be released later than originally scheduled."

I just wanted to second this comment by bangbang.

I use Firefox and I respect Mozilla developers and the community of volunteers a lot but this whole "Asa bashes Opera for whatever reason" saga has gone way too far. I just can´t understand what problem this guy has with Opera and why on earth every move made by Opera (even if it´s a celebration of the 10 years of the product and a license giveaway - what´s wrong there???) has to be put down with cheap shots and childish comments.

As a FF user I feel ashamed. Now Asa´s Praetorian Guard can call me an Opera troll...go ahead...

All the Asa excuse-makers are oddly silent whenever a fellow *Firefox user* speaks up about Asa's crap.

The silence, however, speaks for itself.

Nunya, I'm not really an "Asa excuse-maker" but I'm happy to reply.

I don't bash Opera. When(if) I start bashing Opera, you'll damn well know it and so will anyone else that reads here.

I occasionally post Opera commentary. I point out flaws when I see them. I occasionally poke fun and I also offer regular praise. Those of you who can't see that are way too sensitive about these kinds of things.

If your skin is really so thin that you get this upset about my Opera commentary, I suggest that you stop reading this blog. Life is too short to get your panties in such a wad over something as mundane as what I post here.

- A

"I don't bash Opera. When(if) I start bashing Opera, you'll damn well know it and so will anyone else that reads here."

You aren't going to start saying things directly negative about Opera. Be realistic. You don't have the balls for that, and besides, you're not a (complete) moron, to make yourself look like a (complete) bully.

-

"I occasionally post Opera commentary. I point out flaws when I see them. I occasionally poke fun and I also offer regular praise. Those of you who can't see that are way too sensitive about these kinds of things."

All you do is point out flaws! The *one* time I remember you ever truly giving Opera praise, the post was littered all throughout with "This is good to see, Opera's moving in the Firefox direction!" You can't resist a chance to poke fun at a competitor that obviously intimidates you.

-

"If your skin is really so thin that you get this upset about my Opera commentary, I suggest that you stop reading this blog. Life is too short to get your panties in such a wad over something as mundane as what I post here."

Am I upset? I think you make assumptions. When I'm upset you'll "damn well know it." My opinion is that what you do is unprofessional and immature. Have you never heard "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all!"? You make yourself look like a bunch of over-zealous competetive schoolyard bullies. Doesn't the fact that *even some diehard FF users* are pushed away by your subtle attacks at Opera clue you in to the fact that your attitude towards Opera is offensive to many?

Maybe I'm an Opera troll, I don't really know. But the thing that gets me is snide remarks like the first line. I mean, Opera's CEO when asked almost always (in what I've read) says he things Mozilla is doing good things. He thinks they are good for the market. And he does end with the obligatory "But I think our product is better". Well, that's how to do it. Or speak to problems - Opera has its share.

But bashing being a software company? It's not like it's hidden, or something to be ashamed of. Should we now be ashamed of Mozilla now that they have a Corp?

As to !!, I have a few issues with the post. Mostly I can agree - free and good enough will beat pay and execellent for mass market any day of the week.

However, I'm not sure what sort of solution FireFox is offering that Opera isn't. Opera tries to offer an internet solution. If you do it on the net, they want you to be able to do it with Opera. Hence Bittorrent in the next Opera release, E-mail, IRC etc...

They also have started offering push fixes for broken javascript and such in Opera 8. So they will fix websites for you.

You say FireFox is a solution to IE's insecurity. That's not a good sell. You can't sell a product by saying it's *not* X. Look at where John Kerry is - not in the white house. People are aware that FireFox isn't IE, but I doubt very many switched because you told them it's not IE.

You have to tell them what it does as a positive: Security, Extensions, Free.

But ASA, a visible player in the FireFox scene are posting how they are not X quite a bit. We're better because we're not commercial, not Opera, not bloated,not IE.

I think Opera's marketing is much more low key, and hence one reason they don't have a larger market share - people don't know what it is or that it exists. Then, of course, being a commercial product - people won't try it.

Personally, I think Opera needs to give a trial approach a try again. Switch to ads or purchase after 30 days. So people can actually fully try out the browser.

Nunya, I made three statements of praise for Opera in this one post alone. You're clearly in too defensive a mode to even read what I've written. I'd rather not be costing you all this time and stress so I'm recommending that you don't read here any more.

- A

Opera employees: "Yeah Firefox is nice, but we think Opera is better of course."

Asa: "LOL, Opera is just trying to catch up with Firefox in every way. And when it does something Firefox does, I praise it because Firefox is always leading the way and Opera is lame!"

That's the difference between Opera Software and MoFo/MoCo. Opera doesn't keep bashing the competition, but actually gives it compliments. Mozilla, on the other hand, might "praise" Opera, but the "praise" is really bashing in disguise.

Kelson, nice try:

"Otherwise we could actually have constructive conversations. More "I like Opera/Firefox because..." instead of "I hate Opera/Firefox because..." or "U suk!""

Ok, if Asa stops bashing Opera, maybe we could have some decent dicsussions here.

Oh, and yet another Mozilla troll:

"The only reason people use Opera is for testing."

Sure. That's why I use Opera exclusively for mail, browsing and chat.

I challenge someone to quote one sentence in the above post that is "bashing".

The American Heritage Dictionary descibes bashing as To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly. Asa's post is (arguably) not harsh, does not make any accusations, nor does it threaten. So it has a half a point out of three on the bashing scale.

I wrote up all this crap telling you what I see wrong with what you said, but you know what? You know exactly the reaction your words will have on those who like Opera. That is your intention. That is why you say the exact same things that stir this shit up, OVER AND OVER. It's not just me, grow up! Not one Opera fan has come around (that I can remember) and said "hey Opera fans, lighten up, you're misunderstanding this" but MULTIPLE Firefox fans (or former fans) have admitted to being annoyed at what you say. Firefox fans! Your own people! It isn't just me. It isn't just Opera fans.

Like I said, I don't give a shit if you keep doing this. I will probably quit reading it again (like I did for awhile not long ago) because there is no freaking point in trying to get you to see that the only person that looks bad, in the long run, is you! Nobody will remember me, I'm a nobody here on the ol' Internet. But you have a reputation, and you are supposed to be professional. And you are not. That is to your own detriment, ultimately. You've already lost customers, I think that speaks enough about the truth of what I (and others) have said. Keep it up, Opera is only benefitting from your arrogance.

Oh, and I'm not mad. Or getting my "panties in a knot" or whatever you said. You're just annoying. :)

"I guess that makes Opera about 1/365th as free as Firefox which is available every day of the year at no cost."

Firefix is about 1/365th as good as Opera, so it all evens out in the end ;)

Nunya: Sure, there are some Firefox people who agree with you. And there are also quite a few people who look at that and say, "Oh look, a mild, humorous jab" and move on to read the rest of the post. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

You do have a point that Asa has developed a reputation as an Opera hater. Personally, I think it's undeserved, but that perception now colors everything he says. At this point he could say "Opera's icon is red. What's up with that?" and get an 80-comment flame war.

There seem to be a lot of people here who only read Asa's posts when the word "Opera" appears. Otherwise they'd see the 5- or 6-part critique of Linux, which led to an even bigger flame war. They'd see the things he's said about Internet Explorer and, in particular, the MSN Toolbar which implemented tabs earlier this year (now that's bashing). I don't know how anyone can look at what Asa has said about Microsoft's products and what other people around the Internet have said about Opera (trust me, you can find some pretty rude stuff on just about anything if you look for it) and still consider what I've read here to be attacks, bashing, etc.

In other words: Get some perspective. Don't assume everything is an attack just because the person who said it was named Asa.

Regarding "I guess that makes Opera about 1/365th as free as Firefox which is available every day of the year at no cost.":

So, therefore, if I call a woman who sleeps with men for money a prostitute it is bashing, because even though that's what she is, it is bashing.

I suppose calling Dennis a "menace" is bashing, too.

And it must be horrible to call Internet Explorer "outdated".

@Kelson: I have read much of the other stuff. And yes, I agree, he has been harsher at times with other products. But, the stated goal of Firefox is to overthrow IE (in simple terms), and nearly everyone involved in the IT industry is getting fed up with IE, so I think it goes without saying that he would comment aggressively in regards to that product. Linux is not a competitor in any way to Mozilla, so that part is moot in this discussion, IMO.

My problem with Asa's Opera comments (as I have stated numerous times) is that they're always flowery, cloaked in a word or two of praise. Then, after 3 paragraphs of subtle yet blatant "Why Firefox is better" schoolyard finger-pointing, if anyone is the least bit frustrated with Asa, he says "but look, I said something NICE, too!" Sure he can say Firefox is better, Opera does the same! It's his percieved arrogance about it that many find offensive. Look at the personal blogs of Opera employees, you will not see childish nonsense like this. It is unprofessional.

But, again, I do not live under the illusion that my opinion will have any affect on anyone here. I just get sick of being labelled a troll because I have the nerve to speak up to one of the almighty Mozilla staffers that so many of you seem to think are omnipient and devoid of any character flaws.

Like I said, Asa can turn away customers to his hearts' content. He loses, in the end - not me, or any other Opera user.

It seems that some people don´t get the point. This is not Asa´s personal blog anymore; like it or not he speaks on behalf of Mozilla in this blog (people come here to read the news about Firefox, Thunderbird, Alpha and Beta builds and so on) and he *should* behave like a professional. Instead of that we have a guy that likes and encourages flamefests, and apparently enjoys to make himself look like an over-zealot teenager fanboy.

What some people call " mild, humorous jabs" are perceived by others as cheap shots made by someone who thinks that he is omnipotent; you can agree or not, but the point is that he is perceived as an overconfident flamebaiter by many people and, honestly, he does nothing in order to prove them wrong.

He has the right to post whatever he wants, but he should keep in mind that this nonsense hurts Mozilla. Maybe he doesn´t care, though.

Well, what can you expect from a egoisitc, underpaid developer(if at all) of a browser that tries to imitate features they could never think of from a company that knows how to innovate? This is what you can expect.

Read *any* of Opera's developers' blogs and you won't notice the slightest level of mudslinging towards firefox, as compared to what Asaboy writes all the time. And you want to know why? Because of insecurity. It's these types of comments by Asa that clearly shows how incompetent and insecure he really is about Firefox's development as compared to Opera :) The Opera devs, on the other hand, are proud of their superior work and they know it. Thus, they do not feel the need to shove such cheap shots towards an incompetent competitor backed by insecure developer(note the singular) like Asa :) They simply comment on what it's worth on the face value and are honest about it, and you can prove this to yourselves if you need by reading *any* of opera's devs' blogs, and you can quote me on this.

Have a nice day ;)

Read *any* of Opera's developers' blogs and you won't notice the slightest level of mudslinging towards firefox

Of course not, they save it for published interviews!

Read *any* of Opera's developers' blogs and you won't notice the slightest level of mudslinging towards firefox

I don't think you really want to make that claim, especially considering what is being called mudslinging here.

What I personally would consider worse, Opera employees actually "bash" Mozilla employees on their blogs.

http://my.opera.com/haavard/journal/42
http://my.opera.com/OperaSinger/journal/8, an approving quote
"Mozilla's FireFox app has taken the hint and added the google search idea. What innovative ideas has Mozilla brought to the table? I don't know of any this level but I'll bet we'll see these copied from Opera in a future version."
http://my.opera.com/olli/journal/24/
http://my.opera.com/Rijk/journal/62

von Tetzchner quotes from ZDnet's article:

"Sadly the statistics are undercounting Opera and overcounting