Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

I must be missing something, but is there even such a thing as the "Best Browser Award" that Opera is claiming to have won? Reading the entire press release, it appears to me that Opera is using deceptive and just plain wrong information on the Opera.com frontpage and in the title of the press release. The body of the release does not refer to "best browser" and is accurate in stating that Opera was named as a World Class 2005 product. I honestly hope that this is a mistake on Opera's part, because if it's deliberate, I'll have lost a lot of respect for them.

Total tripe. Is Opera trying to insight a browser riot here? Up until now, I thought they were a pretty stand-up company but this is just junk. Shame on you, Opera, this is marketing spinnery worthy of the slimiest American politicians.

~ Kevin

Kevin, the word you were looking for is 'incite'. Two completely different meanings although they are pronounced the same.

As to the posting, well, what did you expect? Opera is a company, they hire marketing people, marketing people lie. I don't think this is necessarily reflective of the company as a whole, but rather they just hire stupid marketing people.

Tristor, Haavard isn't marketing. See http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=92954#post950001

Reading that thread I can't tell what they're thinking. Are they all just delusional here or am I missing something?

- A

As far as I can tell, Opera found this page:
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp
and decided that whatever was in bold meant the best in that field. Unfortunately that logic falls through when you realize that in the categories of "WEB SITE" and "VOIP SERVICE" and "INSTANT MESSANGER", there are two entries.

So instead of being "The Best", Opera is merely "One of the best."

Erik, that's clearly not a ranking, it's just the same list broken down by category. There, Maxthon is listed alongside Opera. In the flat list, Firefox is obviously number one, with an entire page in the print version dedicated to it. In that same list, Maxthon (number 12) far outranks Opera (number 88.)

The reason Firefox isn't in that category is that it's in a category of it's own (scroll down to see the categories and you'll see "Product of the Year" is it's own category.)

That's pathetic (and pretty dumb).

Maybe PC World can force a retraction from them? Just because they're being delusional, doesnt mean they can claim an award they never received.

Um, hmm, it clearly says received best browser award in 05 on the Opera homepage. If its a mistake on their part its a pretty big, and stupid, one. If its deliberate, then shame on them. I'm a Firefox user but still respected Opera as a browser and a company.

Looking foward to a story on Cnet, which in my opinion kinda diggs into Firefox every chance it gets, titled Opera Lied or something to that sort.

That's clearly misleading... :-(

I've started a already in debate Neowin forum thread on the matter, lol

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=329639

IE is still the best browser. Sorry.

Someone wrote: "IE is still the best browser. Sorry"

I strongly agree, except that you left the letter "a" out of the word "beast". :-)

(Sorry, I know that I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I couldn't resist.)

Its not the same award. The information is just not on PC Worlds web site yet.

T, I've seen the magazine. Opera didn't win best anything. They were one of the 100 celebrated listings and they're mentioned specifically in the "web" category (it's just a category, not a specific award group) but they're ranked number 88 in the list and Firefox is listed as number 1 with a full-page spread. It's clear to everyone looking that Opera is lying about what they've won and that Firefox is PC World's winner overall and the highest ranked browser. Opera is the lowest ranked browser of those recognized (falling way behind even Maxthon.)

- A

In the spirit of "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity", it's possible that this could just be a mistake. Easy thing to do. "Opera in PC World 100 Best Products of 2005" becomes "PC World awards Opera best Web browser".

But I sense another catfight coming on. Now, where did I put my popcorn.

Alex Bishop wrote: "But I sense another catfight coming on. Now, where did I put my popcorn."

Oh yeah, I'll bring the beer.

So let's sing along:

where have all the Opera fanboys gone
where have all the Opera fanboys gone...

Looked into this a bit more. Opera say they've won a 'PC World' World Class 2005 award and they have (every product on the 100 Best Products of 2005 list has). It's the "Best Browser Award" bit that's confusing, as Opera seem to have pulled a Michael Jackson by collecting an award that doesn't exist. They are the only browser listed in the Web category (I guess Firefox is excluded because it's Product of the Year), so I guess they can say they're the best browser in the Web category...

Looking around the Web (Neowin.net and the My Opera Forums), it does seem that a lot of people think that 'PC World' gave Opera the best Web browser award and that this means they prefer it to Firefox. I've even seen exchanges that go (paraphrased):

"They named Firefox Product of the Year!"

"But Opera won the best Web browser award."

Intentional or not, Opera's PR has created the impression that 'PC World' think that Opera is the best browser for the second year running.

Of course, you could be missing the fact that there's more than one magazine by the name of PC World.
For instance, the International Data Group owns a whooping 37 (unless I miscounted) magazines called PC World.
source: http://www.idg.com/www/IDGProducts.nsf/PubViewByTitle?OpenForm

Is it too difficult to imagine that one of thirtyseven magazines published Opera as the Best Browser of '05?
IDG uses freelance-writers for a lot of its content (I'd know, I talked to both IDG and Medstroms (Swedish publisher) in regards to writing an article).
It could simply be a third-party article discussing the different browsers, and the *freelance* author saying he considers Opera to be the best browser.

Of course, Opera not giving a complete reference for the award is a bit shady, but eh?
Let's not jump to conclusions just yet, ok?

Opera being in the Web catagory does not mean it won an award.

Before you say anything to that look at this.
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,3,00.asp

Theres two Utility programs in that catagory, does that mean they BOTH won best utility ?

OK, I posted basically this on Neowin too...

Firefox won Best Product as clearly seen in "Best Products of 2005" at the end of that page.

There's one single web browser category.

Opera 8 is the only browser listed there.

Opera.com, pretty logically IMHO, assumes they're the best web browser.

This is weird since Firefox was picked as best product, but I put the blame on PCWorld for confusing, and I hardly think Opera lies intentionally, if they even lie.

Look what is written here - http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp - no Firefox, no Avant, but Opera is the only listed browser in the category "WEB" of Best Products of 2005.
And here http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp - Firefox is the "product of the year".
So what? Where are they lying?

Anything beyond willful blindness or negligence just pops my lid. I mean...lying. Opera has really crossed the boundary this time from ostentation to psychopath.

Jugalator and others,

there are two browsers listed under the "Web Browser" category. Firefox and Opera. Maxthon is listed under "Browser Plugin" or whatever.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=329639&view=findpost&p=586033593

PC World's categorized listings are nothing more than the Top 100 presented in a different way. Firefox is not listed under the "Web" listing because that would have been redundant as they were already under the "Best Product" listing. Maxthon is there under "Web" competing with Opera.

"T, I've seen the magazine. Opera didn't win best anything. They were one of the 100 celebrated listings and they're mentioned specifically in the "web" category (it's just a category, not a specific award group) but they're ranked number 88 in the list and Firefox is listed as number 1 with a full-page spread. It's clear to everyone looking that Opera is lying about what they've won and that Firefox is PC World's winner overall and the highest ranked browser. Opera is the lowest ranked browser of those recognized (falling way behind even Maxthon.)

- A"

Maxthon is not listed as a Browser. It´s included in the BROWSER PLUG-IN category. ;-)

Fotix
Adobe Photoshop (or any other program) is a well-known program for making fakes. Do not try to be a smart ass and give people fake screenshots.
As you said here - http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=329639&st=30&p=586033664&#entry586033664
All those listings are just the Top 100 presented in a different way. Which is the point I was trying to get across in my graphic juxtaposition.

> Of course, you could be missing the fact that there's more than one magazine by the name of PC World.
The press release for 2004 ( http://opera.com/pressreleases/en/2004/06/04/ ) links to http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,116015,00.asp

Typo:
Instead of Adobe Photoshop (or any other program),
Please, read Adobe Photoshop (or any other image-editing program)

T26NOV.ragnarok:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp

Firefox and Opera listed as Web Browser.

Smart ass? I'd rather be a smart ass than blind.

Ok, this thing had been bugging the hell out of me for a while; thanks for clearing it up.

However, I think that this may be the result of an innocent misunderstanding, and if it is, the fault belongs to both PC World and Opera. PC World decided to list everything by category, and one product can only fit into one category. With the highest honor bestowed upon it, "product of the year" is a category all by its own, hence excluded from all other categories. On the "Web" category page, Opera is the ONLY one listed with subcategory "browser." Maxthon is there too, but its subcategory is "BROWSER PLUG-IN." Hence I can see Opera getting the misinformation that since they are the only "browser" named, they got the browser of the year award. This was confusing as heck to me when I read it first - because I automatically expected them to rate a "best product" in each category. I know, assumptions are always dangerous.

Nonetheless, Opera deserves quite a bit of the blame if this was the case. A close reading of that page reveals the "Web" page is a category list - and the items are listed in ALPHABETICAL ORDER. Take a look and you will see at least three things with the subcategory "web site". Obviously, there cannot be three "best" web sites. There are two with the subcategory "VOIP service". Hence, Opera's people should have been professional to figure out that not only did they not win the "Best Browser" award, but that that award simply does not exist.

Of course, Asa may be right that Opera is simply flat-out lying. I am just not ready to jump to that conclusion yet, but the fact that they don't provide a link to their "award" in their press release is rather suspecious.

Lies you say? Yeah, Mozilla knows how to lie. About others!

http://stuff.techwhack.com/archives/2004/12/10/opera-vs-mozilla-minimo/

Maybe Opera lies about itself, but the MoFo spreads lies about other people.

But SINCE IT'S MOFO IT'S OK! Mozilla Can Do No Wrong! Lying HAHAHAHA, MOZILLA CAN JUSTIFY THAT TO DEFEAT THE EVIL MONOPOLIST OPERA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111 TAKE THAT OPRAH!!!!111

LONG LIVE FOXFIRE"!!!

FIREFOX ROX,

Oh yeah, let's take the word of somebody who loathes Firefox and MoFo anyway, right? What a source!* The issue here is Opera seems to have invented an award that didn't exist, and that's the issue we are going to stay on. You are not going to get to turn this on Mozilla. And for the record, nobody from Mozilla lied there, the author is just unhappy that the techwriters are covering Minimo and ignoring Opera, which, while a valid complaint, does not show that MoFo lied.

Once again, the issue is that Opera somehow interpreted (or lied) that it got the best browser of 2005 award from PC World when no such award exists in fact. We're trying to find out where the chain of communication broke here.

*Anticipating your reaction, Asa's blog is NOT the source of the fact that Opera is claiming an award it hasn't won. That award, PC world's own page shows, does not exist!

"(see the third checkbox with the claim that they've won best browser in '05.)"

Nope, try looking harder. Cause it ain't there.

Opera has now changed their website. On the thread at Neowin someone has the original screenshot before they changed it.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=329639&view=findpost&p=586033369

@Fotix
Yes, I meant you were a smart ass to post a fake screenshot, without saying that it is your graphical compilation, though you did it later in the neowin forum thread above. Just do not delude people, ok?

Opera: Simple the most tricky internet experience.

Can't believe some lengths people go to falsely prove something. Opera didn't lie about this.

felz:

Opera's website, (June 8, 2005):
http://www.opera.com/

Opera's website, (June 6, 2005):
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:IPflJ8BuWUUJ:www.opera.com/+opera&hl=en

Hopefully Google's page cache will hang in there for a while.

Firefox Rox, they didn't actually lie, it was misleading, and probably unintentioanl.

not there... lol
where is it then?

Screenshot of Opera.com on June 8, 2005 at 11:50 (GMT +2).

http://img28.echo.cx/img28/805/opera6ow.png

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/3953/opera0xw.jpg

Google's cache of the old graphic on their site is already gone, so here's a screenshot of it before they changed it.

The server hasn't refreshed for me. The Opera website is, for me, as it was a few days ago, claiming that they won this phantom award. I doubt that this is deliberate misinformation on Opera's part (or hope that they wouldn't stoop this low). Just a misunderstanding...or maybe a bit of embellishment...

What's wrong with you, Asa, Fotix and others?

Making a mistake is not "lying". "Lying" is saying something you know is untrue.

Like Asa is LYING about Opera lying. Opera didn't lie. They made a mistake.

Asa knew that, but he still said that they were lying. He said something he knew was untrue, therefore he was LYING.

What's up with the screenshots? Everyone knows that Opera made a mistake. It's been corrected now.

Fotix, are you some kind of stalker?

Opera didn't lie. Opera is the only browser listed on the Web category on the award page. Thats how they might have got it. They are not lying.

Maybe MOFO should remove some "lies" in the Firefox webpage:

" Firefox empowers you to browse (...) more safely(...) than with any other browser".

http://secunia.com/product/4227/

http://secunia.com/product/4932/

By Asa´s logic:

"It's clear to everyone looking that Mozilla is lying about how secure Firefox is."

Here is the web category, read it. Where is the WEB browser firefox?

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,1,00.asp

"In the following pages you'll find our top picks grouped by category (for example, Security on page 4 and Digital Photography on page 8), as well as in ranked order from 1 to 100 on page 12. Here, we begin with our Product of the Year."

Notice the "top picks grouped by category" part?

Asa lied.

felz:

Firefox was put under the "Best Product" listing. Putting it into "Web" would have merely been redundant.

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,12,00.asp

Both Opera and Firefox are under the "Web Browser" category, as one can clearly see.

And IE7 hasn't even been released yet! And was the new Netscape offering included in the judging?

People hardly need PC-World to tell them Opera is superior, it's clear enough when you use it!

W.

lol ohhh noww the opera fanboys come out in force, after opera.com removes the statement.

if they really won the award, like last few comments are saying they still did, then why did they remove it huh ? ;)

Mike:

At least the debate is over and Opera changed their site. Now they have a more accurate site that is more worthy for their great software. :-) True fans of the software would want the same, those that do not are merely trolling.

(Borrowed from elsewhere...)

The point is that there is clearly room for (mis)interpretation.

Asa knew this when he blogged about it. Why did he automatically assume that Opera was lying, when clearly there was room for making mistakes? Because it was a cheap shot, and he couldn't resist the temptation.

In other words: He accused Opera of lying knowing full well that it was probably just a misunderstanding. Unlike Opera, Asa's blog post was not a misunderstanding, because his posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

So if Asa claimed that Opera lied, but he did the same thing himself, what does that make Asa?

Very cheap shot Asa, this was not a lie, it was clearly a mistake.

If you think Opera lied about this,then obviously Mozilla is lying when they claim that "Firefox empowers you to browse more safely than with any other browser".

This is a double standard. You should remove that line from the webpage; It´s a lie too.

felz:

Firefox was put under the "Best Product" listing. Putting it into "Web" would have merely been redundant.

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,12,00.asp

Both Opera and Firefox are under the "Web Browser" category, as one can clearly see.

Look at the top 100 page i linked, pg 6 i think. no firefox under the web category or under "web browser"...

Opera didn't lie.

Granted one could argue that Opera made a purposeful error ('lied') instead of being willfully blind ('only read what they wanted to hear') or negligent ('didn't verify their facts') in their intention of exposure, I for one would have taken the civilized route of claiming negligence. However, your post is very negative in tone for something that is a simple mistake. Yes, a one-word mistake can be a simple one if you are writing press releases. Important? Yes. Dire? No.

I hate Opera, and would argue their integrity is an oxymoron in and of itself. However, your rallying cry for the lynching of "decided that it's easier lie that to win" is over the top, if not extreme, and will paint Firefox users as zealots who attack anyone and everyone who makes any simple or small mistake.

Bottom line is this knee-jerk reaction to any small error or incorrectness in reporting, and assumptions on deceit will only cause Firefox, and its community's reputation to be seen as extreme, zealot, and to be ignored. When was the last time you talked to a Linux zealot or Mac zealot? They are no fun to talk to, or for that matter, be around. They are to be ignored.

P.S. I use Linux, love Mac, use and love Firefox. I addition, I hate Windows and Opera both.

I also think it's a bad idea to accuse people of lying when it may not have been intentional. On the other hand, the Mozilla folks have been accused of lying when they've made mistaken or slightly misleading statements, so I guess once the argument is down at that level...

felz:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp :

Mozilla Firefox
WEB BROWSER (Free) Let the browser wars begin anew: This open-source program is streamlined, customizable, and just plain better. No wonder it has attracted millions of users in just a few months. Is it merely a coincidence that Microsoft finally plans to give the aging Internet Explorer the major overhaul it has needed for years? Review | Download

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp

Opera 8
WEB BROWSER (Free) Find Firefox too austere? Opera is an attractive, feature-rich alternative. Review

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,12,00.asp

1. Mozilla Firefox Web Browser

...

88. Opera 8 Web Browser

It's nice to know I can always count on these Opera entries for a good laugh. Defend your browser's honor to the death!

FOTIX why are you repeating that tired old lie? Are you turning into ASA?

Opera was listed as a WEB BROWSER in the WEB category.

CLEARLY there is room for misinterpretation.

But then again, truth that doesn't confirm your twisted pictures of Opera is a "lie" to you...

Winning best product doesn't automatically make Firefox best browser. "Product" isn't simply a catch-all for all types of software. Things like learning curve, ease of install, etc, should be weighted much more heavily when judging best product compared with any other category.

Let me use an example: vim versus nano. nano is the better product, vim is the better text editor. Even though they are both text editors.

I use Firefox and much prefer it to Opera. But I see no problem with Opera being considered a better browser than Firefox by others, even if they think that Firefox is the better *product* overall.

I think it's a bit inaccurate the way Opera were turning it into some sort of "best browser" award, but I don't think that Firefox winning best product has anything to do with it whatsoever.

Opera Watch reported this in a different manner than Opera.com.

Not in the least bit surprised how Opera fanboys spin it all around once again. I knew that before beginning to read the comments. Now Asa is the liar, yep sure.

You guys are even lying to yourself. Like some kind of extremist who always has to remind himself that what he's doing and what he's fighting for is the right thing, while losing touch with reality.

The point is that there is clearly room for (mis)interpretation.

Asa knew this when he blogged about it. Why did he automatically assume that Opera was lying, when clearly there was room for making mistakes? Because it was a cheap shot, and he couldn't resist the temptation.

In other words: He accused Opera of lying knowing full well that it was probably just a misunderstanding. Unlike Opera, Asa's blog post was not a misunderstanding, because his posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

So if Asa claimed that Opera lied, but he did the same thing himself, what does that make Asa?

Anyone every see Zoolander? Remember when Derek Zoolander thinks he is going to win the award, doesn't, but still goes up to accept anyway? Maybe that is what happened here. I think Asa was being a little too dramatic. It seems like a simple mistake. Even the graphic seems to coincide with what they "meant" to say.

Either way, the site has changed, drama is over.

Chill out. Opera made a mistake. Asa probably made a mistake by overreacting to it. It happens. Everybody get back to work.

"update: without apology or any public comment at all, Opera has changed their homepage to remove the claim. You can see the old home page here. They have not corrected their press release."

Chill out Asa. Maybe they will do it later (?).

In the meantime why don´t you remove the lie in the FF homepage. You know, the line that says that "Firefox empowers you to browse more safely than with any other browser".

Secunia´s "press release" is very clear about that: http://secunia.com/product/4227/

Why don´t you take your own advice?.

Look, we screwed up and we misread. Sorry. Opera.com has been corrected. Let's all just relax.

wow, you all are really worked up on this...
'hating this browser and that company."

get some perspective will you?
no one strangled your cat, ok?
they're just browsers.... software, right?

I read this blog regularly because it gives a face and personality to the Mozilla organization. It's nice to see someone so excited about this browser space and I find it a good place to see what is on the horizon without being overly technical. Up until this point I haven't felt compelled to post a response, but this has just gone to far. Asa, like it or not, you are the community ring-leader for Firefox. As such, you should conduct yourself with some dignity. Opera make a misleading if not outright false marketing claim. But don't forget, that in the "browser war" for web-standards and a better end user experience, Opera is not the enemy. This entire series of posts is childish and speaks poorly to the professionalism of the Mozilla employees. Please return to what you do best, promoting a browswer and technology platform that you love, updating us on Mars, and giving cat tips. Leave the petty acusations of lying and cheating to those less dignified.

David, it's not just Opera bashing. See, _FIREFOX_ won the very award and recognition that Opera has been claiming for the last five days was theirs. That's not just a lie but an outright theft of the recognition awarded to Firefox by PC World. I'm sorry if you don't feel that my calling them on that is professional but I'd expect them to do the same if Firefox was claiming last year to have won the recognition that was rightly theirs.

It's one thing to say "we're the best" or make other superlative claims. That's fair game in any advertising. It's something completely differnt when you make a claim on an award that either doesn't exist or was very explicitely given to someone else.

- A

Yes, I concede that PC World ranked Firefox ahead of Opera. Opera made a mistake. I don't think Opera can afford to intentionally misrepresent something that can easily be uncovered/exposed from a marketing/publicity standpoint.

Of course, I don't agree with PC World's assessment of the 'browsers'; of course, Opera is so much more than a browser, also.

Opera is #1 in my rankings and that is all that matters to me. :)

"Look, we screwed up and we misread. Sorry. Opera.com has been corrected. Let's all just relax.
Posted by: Leons Petrazickis on June 8, 2005 07:30 AM"

So Leons works for Opera? I doubt it.

Hey Asa, what about the lies a Mozilla representative made about Opera's portability?

http://stuff.techwhack.com/archives/2004/12/10/opera-vs-mozilla-minimo/

"We can be ported to many platforms that Opera can’t"

Have you Mozilla guys retracted lies you've made about Opera?

Rick, of course Opera can't!

IT's not opensource, it can be run only on the platforms the developers support (provide binaries).

Opera page still show the tird checkbox as received award's in 04 and 05

Argh , provider cache problem ... sorry.

I just need to say that for all the people that view Opera Fanboys as rabid idiots, we're not all like that (at least not all of the time). As someone mentioned, OperaWatch was pretty clear about who was the "best" browser in PC World's article, just as I was: PCWorld: Opera Second String to Bushy Tailed Rodent.

Also, as a firm supporter of Opera, and as much as it pains me to legitimise partisan hackery, I can't help but agree with Asa's assessment - what Opera did was wrong, or at least negligent, and they're not doing enough to make it right. Not calling it a lie is like saying they did not have sexual relations. They should just admit it and move on. Preferably before they're asked, but that ship has sailed. It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

This is really too small a scale for fanboys on either side to be paraphrasing so badly something that was so badly paraphrased - "either you are with me, or you are my enemy". Opera fanboys who don't like it, can't handle the truth, or believe that FUD is a legitimate form of marketing - can go swivel.

Interesting that this flamefest isn't the usual group. The people who have complained the loudest about Asa's past "anti-Opera" posts either haven't commented or have made just one or two remarks, and generally sensible ones.

¡Hola!
I believe that Opera has made a mistake.
People make mistakes, like the american government.
Please, visit Cuba. ¡We are all friends here!

¡Adios!

To clarify it all:

http://my.opera.com/haavard/journal/52

Dude, seriously, you need to stop with the constant attacks against Opera. It's starting to make you look like an over zealous fanboy instead of a dev of one of the most important browsers of the past decade.

Opera has just issued a statement about it.

The announcement on the front page said that Opera won a "World Class Award." It's true: they did. All the products listed win PC World's "World Class Award." But Best Browser? I'm not sure where THAT particular claim came in, but it's obviously not true, and that should have been obvious from the get-go.

Dude, seriously, you need to stop with the constant attacks against Opera. It's starting to make you look like an over zealous fanboy instead of a dev of one of the most important browsers of the past decade.

That about sums it up from my perspective, also.

> I'm sorry if you don't feel that my calling them on that is professional but I'd expect them to do the same if Firefox was claiming last year to have won the recognition that was rightly theirs.

Asa, did you email them asking them to retract the claim before telling everybody that Opera was lying?

If you did that and got no response, then I agree that what Opera did was very wrong. But if you simply assumed that Opera were intentionally being nasty and decided to be nasty back, then I agree with the other people here in saying that it was uncalled for and you overreacted.

Hi Everyone,
Is it just me, or does everyone hate Opera? You do know, dont you that they were fighting the fight against IE before Mozilla ever existed.

And, of course, I am writing this in an Opera browser. I have Firefox, but it just doesnt "feel" right, plus it seems to me to be slower than Opera; and FF's pop-up blocker does not discriminate between types of pop-ups.

Plus, how many browser hacks have you heard of that involve Opera? I havent heard of any.

Just because IE hating fanboys created Firefox and generated buzz doesnt mean you have to start hating the competition. Remember, IE is the real enemy here.

Regards,
Peter

My my my, we are wasting a lot of energy on Firefox vs. Opera debates... (Me included!)

The most interesting thing to me about the direction FireFox is taking is that it is (imho) becoming more and more like Opera (look at past and future features to be added). This of course would beg the question of where FF's vision comes from. This is not to deny that FF is good but without the extensions it is nowhere as powerful as Opera, and of course having such extesionabilty would greatly improve Opera. Would I change from Opera if I felt it was as good, probably but not because of the browser but because of the added functionality supplied by the extensions some of which are way cool. In the mean time on my not so fast hardware Opera is definetly faster and those who say otherwise tend to have cable and P4's.

Also, it appears to me that this particular blogger likes to inflame the web as (if I remember correctly) when he chastized KDE re: Safari. A little more maturity in his postings would be better for all web participants and would bring him more respect and also foster better cooperation from all parties.

Hello again,
I have a comment on Bla Nkenese's post(and no, i didnt read this before my first post):
"You guys are even lying to yourself. Like some kind of extremist who always has to remind himself that what he's doing and what he's fighting for is the right thing, while losing touch with reality."

I mean, is that a nice thing, even if true, to say about that Bush administration? :-)

Yes, I know I'll get flamed and banned...

Peter

News.com.com.com boggled about all this:

http://news.com.com/2061-10795_3-5737433.html

"Dozens of flaming messages later, Opera issued a retraction and Dotzler was left defending his professionalism."

Schadenfreude? Me? No...

It was just an oversight on part of opera.Silly and costly no doubt but not an intentional one.

ROTFL. It looks like now Asa is left alone with his premature, rude accusations. What a jerk.

I think Asa had every right to say that Opera lied, because when I look at what all has happened, I come to the same conclusion. And I sure think it is a good thing to confront those that come up which such kind of lies.
Does anybody recall the "weapons of mass destruction" story?

Paul Festa covering this verbal joust and Poop thinks it's the last word? Get real.

I can't believe people can be such apologists. Then again, after Bush's numerous lies, I should've known better. Do you apologists not think that Opera read the Product of the Year when they got the issue, even if they only read it from the Web?

tsee: You would be interested in knowing that Opera is the only browser in the "web" category. Makes you think you are the best *web* browser, right? Product of the year (as firefox is) has more to to with how much it changed the market last year (including hype) than how good it is. Next year it will be something else, no matter how good Firefox is.

tsee: You would be interested in knowing that Opera is the only browser in the "web" category. Makes you think you are the best *web* browser, right? Product of the year (as firefox is) has more to to with how much it changed the market last year (including hype) than how good it is. Next year it will be something else, no matter how good Firefox is.

Sheesh, talk about a tempest in a teapot. We're seriously gonna go 'round and 'round not over opinions about what's the "best" browser, but over opinions about what may or may not be someone's opinion about what's the best browser?

Oh my, that guy who claims that Asa lied is pretty funny... By saying that he makes himself pretty much of a liar, by his own definitions =)
And why can't the Opera people just chill off and do like Opera themselves just have done; Accept that they didn't win the best browser award (if it ever existed).
This whole thing doesn't make Opera a less fantastic browser, though I must admit that making press releases and giving it huge attention on their first page, without ever really confirming the facts, does lower the reputation of their MARKETING DEPARTMENT. None said about the browser developers. Opera is still good, and so is Firefox, so go on to the real enemies here: Microsoft and their upcoming IE7 =)

"And why can't the Opera people just chill off and do like Opera themselves just have done; Accept that they didn't win the best browser award"

I guess because they are sick and tired of Asa's FUD and lies?

"I must admit that making press releases and giving it huge attention on their first page, without ever really confirming the facts, does lower the reputation of their MARKETING DEPARTMENT."

Yeah, like Mozilla's marketing relies heavily on FUD and lies:

http://stuff.techwhack.com/archives/2004/12/10/opera-vs-mozilla-minimo/

"We can be ported to many platforms that Opera can’t"

Lie.

At least Opera take it back if they make a mistake.

"Opera is still good, and so is Firefox, so go on to the real enemies here: Microsoft and their upcoming IE7 =)"

Right. So why does Asa keep attacking Opera?

And why is IE and enemy? It turns out that the honemoon is over. Firefox has had too many security holes lately for anyone to take Mozilla seriously when they boast about being the most secure browser. More marketing lies, anyway.

Whoa Rick!
No reason to get that upset. Asa may be kind of a spokesperson for Mozilla, but really, right now this isn't about what Mozilla does or doesn't. I'm just talking about the so called "Best Browser award". And I might add that I'm as happy to see someone using Opera as Mozilla/Firefox. Anything that has a chance to bring down the MS/HTML monopoly somewhat is good.

And about platforms... I take it as a case of bad wording. Opera can probably be ported to about as many platforms as can Mozilla, but since mozilla's source is freely available, you're more likely to find a build for your odd system.

Oh, and I did a quick, highly unscientific research about the security (made a quick search for "Opera" and for "Mozilla" over at secunia). The Mozilla search actually didn't give as many results as the Opera search, and firefox gave far less, probably because it's newer. But still, a search for IE gave a lot more results.

Cheers!

Rick: Do you have any better examples of "Mozilla lies" than one quote from a 6-month-old interview, or are you just going to trot that same URL out every time you comment on someone's blog or forum?

(While we're at it, why is it that Opera can make an honest mistake as part of their deliberate promotion on their home page, but a Mozilla developer being interviewed about his product must be maliciously lying?)

http://stuff.techwhack.com/archives/2004/12/10/opera-vs-mozilla-minimo/

Quite possibly the worst article I've ever read. It's an interview with Doug Turner, not a piece about mobile browsers, per se. It's not a Minimo v. Opera piece. I like the "Opera 8 Download Now" affiliate link at the top too, it's cute. Or wait, does that make it "professional"?

To put it in CNET's words:

"Dozens of flaming messages later, Opera issued a retraction and Dotzler was left defending his professionalism."

Also, Asa lied about Opera lying.

Asa knew that there was room for misinterpretation when he blogged about it. Why did he automatically assume that Opera was lying, when clearly there was room for making mistakes? Because it was a cheap shot, and he couldn't resist the temptation.

In other words: He accused Opera of lying knowing full well that it was probably just a misunderstanding. Unlike Opera, Asa's blog post was not a misunderstanding, because his posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

So if Asa claimed that Opera lied, but he did the same thing himself, what does that make Asa?

Oh my, this is just... oh well, guess i'll fall for the temptation of the trolls =)
In what friggin way did Asa lie? Opera didn't tell the truth, nowhere on the PC World page did I find anything saying that Opera had received an award for anything, except being on the top 100 list, which they themselves have etiher been forced to change or realized on their own.
And they didn't just put a little notice on their page either, they put it out as an attention puller on their first page and issued a press release too.
Making such claims for an award that doesn't even exist, and if it did, would not have gone to them, is serious.
OK, it may have been a mistake, but really, Opera was more likely to have understood that they hadn't received an award than Asa was to think it was just a "simple" mistake by Opera, and therefore I see no lie in what he said.
Whouch, I really don't get your logic...
Anyway, have a nice week end!

Asa knew that there was room for misinterpretation when he blogged about it. Why did he automatically assume that Opera was lying, when clearly there was room for making mistakes? Because it was a cheap shot, and he couldn't resist the temptation.

In other words: He accused Opera of lying knowing full well that it was probably just a misunderstanding. Unlike Opera, Asa's blog post was not a misunderstanding, because his posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

So if Asa claimed that Opera lied, but he did the same thing himself, what does that make Asa?

His posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

Only if you go into it with that assumption.

I've read his posting history too, and I just don't see the same thing you do. As I've said before, this is the first post of his that looked, to me, anything like an "attack" on Opera. Criticisms? Sure. But I don't see him posting that, say, the CEO is an idiot for swimming the North Atlantic, or that no one should use Opera, etc. or that Opera is a piece of crap the way he complained about the MSN toolbar's implementation of tabbed browsing.

At most, he looks more like a former fan who was disappointed in how it changed, and checks in on it once in a while to see if what he liked about it is back. Kind of like fans of Star Trek who gave up on Enterprise but watched an episode or two a season, and were reminded of why they started watching some other show instead.

I am an Opera user, and I feel that...

• It was wrong for Opera to advertise an "award" or "status" without first confirming with the "award" issuer [PCWorld].
• Likewise, it was wrong for Asa to automagically assume that Opera was "lying" without first confirming facts with the statement issuer [Opera].
• A lot of commenting users here need to try to grow up.

;)

Hey! Isn't PC World supposed to clarify these things?

Interesting emotional thread.

I find it curious that Opera links to certain 'awards', but not others.

Where is the link to the mysterious "PC World's 2005 World Class Award" that the Opera press release prides itself on earing?

http://opera.com/pressreleases/en/2005/06/03/

The "PC World's 2005 World Class Award" is claimed not once, not twice, but THREE times. Where or where is this mentioned on the PC World page?

RayG

Hi, I'm God. Let's all be friends and play poker.

After seeing all the energy being spent on this topic I thought some elucidation was in order:

First a few quotes:

"tsee: You would be interested in knowing that Opera is the only browser in the "web" category. Makes you think you are the best *web* browser, right? Product of the year (as firefox is) has more to to with how much it changed the market last year (including hype) than how good it is. Next year it will be something else, no matter how good Firefox is.
Posted by: Toman on June 9, 2005 07:42 AM"

"felz:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,00.asp :

Mozilla Firefox
WEB BROWSER (Free) Let the browser wars begin anew: This open-source program is streamlined, customizable, and just plain better. No wonder it has attracted millions of users in just a few months. Is it merely a coincidence that Microsoft finally plans to give the aging Internet Explorer the major overhaul it has needed for years? Review | Download

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp

Opera 8
WEB BROWSER (Free) Find Firefox too austere? Opera is an attractive, feature-rich alternative. Review

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,120763,pg,12,00.asp

1. Mozilla Firefox Web Browser

...

88. Opera 8 Web Browser
Posted by: Fotix on June 8, 2005 03:54 AM"

As Toman states "Product of the Year" is a different beast than "Best of Class".
Fotix kindly provided the pertinent quotes from the "Top 100 List".

PCWorld: "Find Firefox too austere? Opera is an attractive, feature-rich alternative."

Austere: #3. Having no adornment or ornamentation; bare: an austere style. - dictionary.com

This seems to say that FireFox is a great basic browser(yes you can get more features if you are prepared to hunt them down and install them) but, if you want a full featured browser then Opera is an "attractive, feature-rich alternative.".

If you read the "Product of the Year" article you will find this breakdown:

"When the dust settles, the different browsers offer their own unique benefits and drawbacks. Here's a quick take on which browser might be best for you, depending on how you work.

Firefox: The best all-around alternative to IE. Great for power users who want to add functionality to the browser, and appropriate for newbies just getting started.

Internet Explorer: Best for corporate users in controlled environments and those who spend most of their time on Microsoft-branded or IE-specific Web sites.

Netscape: Best for AOL subscribers (with AOL Instant Messenger integration) and those who are willing to put up with some rough edges to use other goodies, including an HTML editor and e-mail program.

Opera: Best for power users who keep many pages open at once and perform frequent downloads."

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,118959,00.asp

PCWorld clearly states: "Opera: Best for power users..."

It therefore follows if Opera is BEST for POWER USERS(any person who knows enough about a computer or other device to take full advantage of its advanced features. - dictionary.com) then it is the "BEST" browser.

I hope this clears up this issue.

Koan

Hey All,

Get a life! FireFox and Opera are just programs, not anything life-or-death important. Thanks for giving me a laugh this morning!!

haha

I second that Chad, but, you forgot something important, like your car, if the browser you're using isn't secure, well, your life could be a real nightmare (for example when you're using your credit card to buy stuff).
I know people who almost lost their job because of a mere program... heh right life can be so miserable.

Hey, the long and short of it is that there were some conflicting statements that appear to be a misunderstanding. It's been retracted. End of story.

I used to use Opera. Now I use and love Firefox.

There are only two things I really want:

1.) Asa to stop acting like a pompous horse's hiney and grow up.

2.) All of the zealots (on both sides) to shut up. You'd think Opera invaded Kuwait or something. Sheesh. It reminds me of a quote I once read: "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded." Change it to "arguing over a web browser", and it fits pretty well, I think.

RayG, maybe you should pay attention...

As stated on the very first page of the 2005 PC World World class Awards:

"When you're buying hardware, software, and services, you want the top combination of power, features, reliability, and value. That's what you'll find in these World Class Award winners"

Opera was one of 100 World Class Award winners.

Now quit it with the fanboyism already.

asa, grow up! calling someone a liar before you even know what's going on is pathetic. mistakes happen, have you (or the frame injection bug) forgotten? perhaps a little more patience and conversation is in line before calling someone a liar, as now you're the one with foot-in-mouth.

especially when in your own words you are defending yourself by assuming since ff was 'best product' they wouldn't duplicate it in the category listing. why should i not call you a liar then, cuz i don't think it works that way (even tho i have no proof to back it up)?

professionalism has been lacking in the mozilla foundation from day one, and i also hate the grandstanding to make news...