Don't you see a difference between open source and open standards/formats? Bleh.

Here we go:

"We believe in international, open standards.

The Internet should stay open and free to all users, regardless of which browser-application they are using. Standards are much like the spirit of the Internet; a structure on which human innovation can prosper to the benefit of everyone. Opera Software will never seek to hinder the Net's continuous evolutionary process by imposing proprietary standards."

http://opera.com/company/vision/

Agreed. Asa: you seem to have misunderstood this report. Open standards can be adopted by any piece of software. Opera supports open standards with open arms. So does Firefox. So does SeaMonkey.

Open source 'simply' means the software is freely avaiable and can be modified and redistributed, albeit under the GNU public licence.

Opera is not open source, yet see how it still supports open standards.

Firefox is open source, and supports open standards.

As you can see from the above, Open Source and Open Standards do not depend on each other.

Mr Lizard, the GNU public license is one of dozens of OSI approved open source licenses. see http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.php

- A

Poop and Mr. Lizard, perhaps you replied without reading the report. I've quoted above to save you the difficulty of clicking the link.

- A

Asa, you could answer that question yourself without riling up the Opera crowd. All you need to know is what portion of Opera's revenue comes from the Norwegian government. I have no idea what the answer is, but I doubt it's significant. Most likely, they all use IE like most everyone else.

Anyway, from the details in the article it seems like this is more of an anti-MS move than a pro-open-source one. Governments like open source because it's free (at least at face value). They don't really care (for the most part) that you can read and modify the code.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it means anything for Opera.

Asa Dotzler on Firefox, cats, Mars, and riling up the Opera crowd.

Norwegian Embassies don't even use Opera, they use Internet Explorer.

http://operawatch.blogspot.com/2005/05/no-support-for-opera-at-norwegian.html

I am norwegian and I use Opera, and Firefox. Dont care for IE

Opera fanboys... When the fat lady sings I guess.

Yes. What DOES it mean? They're trying to save money, among other things. So what is your point exactly?

Asa. I read Norwegian. Luckily. I will cite the "plan" in Norwegian, then translate the relevant parts (interleaved, in emphasis).

• "I løpet av 2009 skal alle nye IT- og informasjonssystemer i offentlig sektor bruke åpne standarder." Within 2009, all IT-systems in the public sector should use open standards
• "I løpet av 2006 skal det være etablert et sett av forvaltningsstandarder for data- og dokumentutveksling." This says to establish common standards for exchange of data and documents within the public services within 2006
• "I løpet av 2006 skal alle virksomheter i offentlig sektor ha innarbeidet i aktuelle plandokumenter hvordan de skal gjøre bruk av åpne standarder, tjenesteorientert arkitektur og åpen kildekode." This says that all public services should by 2006 work out plan-documents for how they intend to use open standards, services based architecture, and open source (My emphasis).
• "I løpet av 2008 skal data og dokumentutveksling i offentlig sektor tilfredsstille forvaltningsstandardene. "Within 2008 all departments should meet the standards listed.
• "I løpet av 2008 skal alle offentlige skjema bygge på felles brukergrensesnitt." During 2008, all public forms should be based on the the same user interface

So. Does this look like a plan to use open source? Certainly Open source is part of the picture, and thats really good if you ask me. But it doesn't say to use Open source exclusively, or even in major part. It says that everyone should evaluate it and make plans that include the evaluation and/or inclusion of open source. The message here is open standards, not open source.

Then. The real reason Asa posted this. Opera is Norwegian and it isn't open source. It doesn't make firefox better, and it doesn't make Opera worse. This is really low Asa.

@joel: This may be an Anti-MS move but that does not mean that governments do not like the ability to change the code. For example my local public uni used a search engine designed to search for real estate by people, they took this and changed it so that the front end allowed also for apartment managers to input their info, which is now searchable by the apartment hunters.

Isn't this kind of like asking Excel users what the decision means for Microsoft?

Regarding the first few commenters who don't seem to have read the article, maybe they only clicked on the first link, to the Slashdot summary. And then, in time-honored Slashdot tradition, didn't RTFA. After all, there's nothing but whitespace between the two links, and I actually didn't notice there were two at first. I just lucked out that I clicked on the second half of what looked like "the" link and got the actual article.

Don't go anywhere, guys, I need to make some popcorn!

Does Asa have an Opera complex? Because it seems like that.

Oh, I doubt Opera got a single penny from the Norvegian "public sector" and I don't know what it should mean for them. Probably it means nothing. I hope Asa will be satisfied with the answer.

Bottom line: It doesn't mean shit. Just another case of a scared Asa seeing that Opera outperforms his own darling (smaller, faster, more functionality), and trying to calm himself down by stirring up unimportant crap.

As a dual Firefox and Opera user (depending on which browser has the latest and greatest features ;-)) I can only say -- good move for the Norwegian government. I think using both open source and open standards to not lose support for closed formats over time as some company decides to stop supporting them is vital, and something the US goverment should've thought of a long time ago.

OK, next question for the wonderful Opera users?

Yeah, I don't know why Asa feels the need to slam Opera every 2 seconds. I know this is his blog and he can do/say whatever he wants, but this is coming across as really immature. Geez. I'm a 100% FF user and haven't used Opera in many years, but geez, relax. Move on. Leave Opera alone.

Also, re this:

"This is not just about open standards, but open source as well."

So? Cool for them if they're looking at open source too. It's good they're broadening their search of suitable software to the open source market. Anyway, nowhere does it say they're replacing all software with open source if that's what you're implying would be interesting to hear opinions about from Opera users.

"Must have a plan to use open source" doesn't imply "must use open source exclusively", or even "must have a plan to use open source exclusively".

How is this an "opera slam"? If the U.S. announced plans to try to move to proprietary formats and proprietary code where possible, would it be unreasonable for people to ask Firefox fans what they thought that would mean for the future of Firefox?

Many of you all are way too sensitive.

- A

Well, most people mistakenly refer to Opera as Open Sauce anyway, so what's the problem :P?

@asa:

I really shouldn't react... but if the USA did something anti-open source, and proprietary software vendors would start asking 'so, where does that leave you', that would be considered gloating, and a little childish.

But it is funny to see Opera-fans accusing Asa of being obsessed with Opera, while anxiously keeping track of his blog :)

"Eh, doesn't matter. Asa said something with the word Opera in it, so it must be an attack."

It's just another troll post by Asa. Why on earth would Opera be affected by this?

"Some of the comments here are getting way too predictable."

Of course they are. When Asa, predictably, posts about Opera in an attempt to put it down, of course the comments will be predictable as well.

"The profanity spices things up a bit, though, and definitely goes a ways towards demonstrating relative maturity levels."

Yeah, notice how Opera don't constantly put down Firefox, while Asa and other Mozilla reps constantly whine about Opera.

"Eh, doesn't matter. Asa said something with the word Opera in it, so it must be an attack."

It's just another troll post by Asa. Why on earth would Opera be affected by this?

"Some of the comments here are getting way too predictable."

Of course they are. When Asa, predictably, posts about Opera in an attempt to put it down, of course the comments will be predictable as well.

"The profanity spices things up a bit, though, and definitely goes a ways towards demonstrating relative maturity levels."

Yeah, notice how Opera don't constantly put down Firefox, while Asa and other Mozilla reps constantly whine about Opera.

In case the point wasn't clear: Asa use everything he can think of against Opera. He's used the open vs. closed source argument before. He held it against Opera that it is closed source, and pretends that most people give a damn about whether the source code is available or not.

Ignoring the fact that Opera is smaller and faster than Firefox, he goes on and on and on about Opera and tries to pain a picture where Opera is struggling because it isn't open source.

Also ignoring Mozilla's predatory practices, as if it was an aspiring illegal monopolist, he makes Opera out to be crappy and the company to have clueless people who don't know what they are doing and therefore need to follow the lead of some open source browser which doesn't do much more than IE by default.

So yeah, Asa does it again. He bashes Opera, and this time he returns to his "closed source bad, open source good" mantra.

Like I said earlier, I am a 100% FF user and haven't used Opera for years. I agree with many of the things Asa says about Operas annoying ass cluttered interface and the really annoying ads. I do not use Opera simply because I feel FF is far superior. But thats that. Lets really try to go a week without mentioning Opera. I really don't know why it has to keep being brought up. Let it go... sheesh. I also think there may be a downside to all this bashing, as Dan100 said, some people are going to be turned off by what they perceive as immaturity and go with the other browser-that-is-not-IE.

One more thing. It might strike you as hypocrit, irrational, break your whole world down or whatever. But Opera is distributed along with lots of Linux distributions, and ALL the major ones. (Suse, RedHat, Fedora, Red Flag, Ubuntu etc)

Notably, Skolelinux (the linux distro made especially for education) is worked on by Opera developers in their spare time, and if I'm not mistaking, the head of Skolelinux used to work for Opera. (Screenshots from skolelinux with Opera).

If the public services in Norway were to decide to use a Linux-based operating system, it will most likely be one that includes Opera on the CD by default. GPL doesn't forbid closed source applications from running on Linux. - Like people prefer to use the official (closed) nvidia driver for their nvidia AGP cards because its faster and better, I choose to use Opera for the same reason.

Dan100: Actually, Opera ID's itself as "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; <platform>; en) Opera 8.01" Any stats program worth using will notice the "Opera 8.01" in there and recognize it correctly. (On principle, I always switch to "Identify as Opera" whenever I install it on a new computer.)

It actually uses the real platform, so if I just copy and paste, I get "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; Linux i686; en) Opera 8.01" I imagine this will confuse any browser sniffers that conclude that I'm visiting with IE6 on Linux. Of course, I actually can run IE6 on Linux using Wine (I've got a great screenshot somewhere of a message box labeled "simulating reboot") but it claims to be Windows 98.

Rick: You know, there was a time I thought you honestly believed what you were posting. Misguided, IMO, but honest. But lately your comments have gone so far off the deep end that their connection to reality is tenuous at best. I have to assume you're just trolling.

Asa: any idea why the comments have gotten out of order? I can see at least one case where an "earlier" comment is quoting from a "later" one.

Toman: Do you know of a Yum (or Apt) repository for Fedora that includes Opera? I don't mind doing the download-and-copy thing (since I have to on Windows and Mac anyway), but if I can just add it to my yum config, it will save me some time. Thanks.

Kelson: Hmm, seems I was wrong about redhat and fedora (But there are plenty other distros than the ones I mentioned that include Opera ;-). Opera has its own deb repo though (which they should update, grmbl):

# Opera
deb http://deb.opera.com/opera/ stable non-free
deb http://deb.opera.com/opera/ testing non-free
deb http://deb.opera.com/opera/ unstable non-free

As with any corporate- or government-mandated rules or standards, users will ineviately find ways to violate them -- legally, or not. As such, this ruling will have very little, if any impact on Opera ASA at all.

Likewise, when it comes to running a successful business, security is always a higher priority than open standards or open source:

http://secunia.com/product/4227/
-vs-
http://secunia.com/product/4932/

Dan100,
Do you know the exact user agent string used by Opera by default? Or the format it follows (if it varies by version)? Anyway, on that point, IE's *apparent* market share is slowly but steadily giving way to Firefox... so even if Opera is doing well, or gaining (or losing), Firefox is still making gains over IE+Opera.

Anyway, in the end, I think this is just a neat little irony. It's like Redmond, Washington switching to open source... what would everyone think?! I don't think everyone would get so angry, because most people agree there are issues with Microsoft's software, and in particular the lack of other choices (for mainstream users who like their comfort zone.)

Dan100,
Do you know the exact user agent string used by Opera by default? Or the format it follows (if it varies by version)? Anyway, on that point, IE's *apparent* market share is slowly but steadily giving way to Firefox... so even if Opera is doing well, or gaining (or losing), Firefox is still making gains over IE+Opera.

Anyway, in the end, I think this is just a neat little irony. It's like Redmond, Washington switching to open source... what would everyone think?! I don't think everyone would get so angry, because most people agree there are issues with Microsoft's software, and in particular the lack of other choices (for mainstream users who like their comfort zone.)

Okay weird issue with time zones... my post is on there twice because I thought it didn't post, but then I realized it posted (twice) and was out of order because of the time in there. It's 7:19 PST now... when did the people below post, and why is it shoing PM for them already?!

Asa,

I love your blog, I love your work, and I hate to say this:

You sound like a pompous ass in this post.

While Firefox may be my product of choice, it has been brought to my attention that both Ben Goodger and and you Asa, have a nasty habit of pointing out things that are bad or are possibly bad about the competing products, which just makes Mozilla look unprofessional, and it gives advocates of other products reason to hate YOU, rather than just your product. (be it the case)

Yep, Asa's picking on Opera again. How dare he point out the irony in this article. How dare he suggest that Opera... wait, what exactly did he suggest here?

Eh, doesn't matter. Asa said something with the word Opera in it, so it must be an attack.

Some of the comments here are getting way too predictable. The profanity spices things up a bit, though, and definitely goes a ways towards demonstrating relative maturity levels. Heck, this almost makes me feel like I'm reading Slashdot again.

Anyway, as a dual user, my take on this is that Joel has it right: it all depends on whether the Norwegian government is using Opera now. If not, if probably won't have much impact.

I'd used Firefox/bird since July 2003, but Asa's constant Opera-attacking made me *finally* have a look at Opera 8.

Much to my suprise, I've only opened Firefox a couple of times since, to finish reading what I had open in that session. Opera is smarter, better designed, more responsive, more stable and only uses a *fraction* of the memory Firefox does. I was going to upgrade my 256mb system - now I don't have to.

My Mum still uses Firefox, mind you, as the highly-customized (lots of extensions) set-up I made for her fits her like a glove. (She has a much more powerful computer, too.)

But I urge everyone else just to _try_ Opera, and keep an open mind. You might be suprised. I was.

(It's also worth noting that by default, Opera ID's itself as IE. I doubt many people bother changing the pref for that, so browser market share stats must hugely under-report Opera).

Kelson:
Your comments are predictable as well. Does that make them any less true? Absolutely not.

The point is that there was no reason for Asa to bring Operaup in this. This does not relate to Opera. So what was his motive? The only vibe some of u s get from it is a "na na na na na! your own government is moving towards open source. what now??".

I mean, that this mean:

- The purpose not to depend on own pleasure of any monopoly
- Possibility to use even third party programs (enabled through open standards)
- Good contact with suppliers
- Enough influence to features of programs, those have big governmental order
- Cooperation in developing
- Trustiness, correctness

I think, government don't want to develop, they want only to look, what they receive. And in this view-point had chance both FireFox and Opera. But this project seems to be so far, yet.

And of course price!

Vincze János

Asa, as always, is trashing Opera. I used FF till now that I tried Opera, just because it's constantly being attacked by Asa. I though it should be worth a try. I doubt I'll ever get back to FF. opera has every feature that FF has with extensions.

now I only need to say this: Asa is hypocritical. He seems to hate Opera, but many FF features were copied from Opera.

How is this trashing Opera in any way? He posed a question about how Norway's interest in open source would affect Opera...

I swear, Asa could say "I used Opera the other day." and nothing else, and he'd still be accused of bashing Opera. Get lives people!