The default-ticked option to install the weather tray spyware and "collect web-usage statistics" are the best features IMO *thumbsup*

and Safari bringing Apple back from the brink

shouldnt that be the other way round?

I gave it a whirl and its really not that bad. Good upgrade for Netscape users and I'm sure will find a niche amongst others. The UI was cleaned up from what I saw in the betas. I think they were smart enough to take user feedback and actually do something. An update to this continuing in that direction and I think they may persuade me over.

But I doubt I'll switch over from Firefox trunk nightlies anytime soon.

As if Netscape.com wasn't enough of a trainwreck with it's lovely "What's new" popunder, now this. Congratulations Netscape, obtrusive "warnings" are the right way to compete in today's market.

http://dean.edwards.name/my/misbehaviors/#noIE-popup

evil marketing ... but it seems to work. i dont really know what to think about it :|

Netscape 8 pales in comparison to Firefox. It looks like they listened to Blake Ross, as the UI is much better now. While there are some very nice features (e.g. hourly updates to blacklisted sites), there are some pretty bad things as well.

A slashdot reader found this in the EULA:

AOL INSTANT MESSENGER ("AIM") AND AN AOL MEDIA PLAYER ENGINE ("MEDIA PLAYER") ARE INCLUDED WITHIN THE NETSCAPE 8 BROWSER. THE EXECUTABLE VERSIONS OF THE NETSCAPE 8 BROWSER, AIM, AND THE MEDIA PLAYER ARE REFERRED TO COLLECTIVELY HEREIN AS THE "BROWSER."

Moreover, the welcome page contains the sentance "Register for a chance to WIN a 2006 Lexus RX Hybrid!". A big no-no. Not even Microsoft does anything like that.

Lastly, a slashdot reader also noticed the TRIPLE nested tabs within the options menu! (Tools -> Options -> Form Fill)

IE engine?! it takes a life time to switch between the tabs. I was always showing people the tab dance in Firefox so that they believe how fast it is. And it uses FF+IE memory plus all the overheads. With 4 or 5 pages open it is now near 150meg, enjoy.

You do realize Safari has been around as long as FF, and technically longer since 1.0 was only recently.

Not saying, just saying.

>"..before Firefox, the browser space was pretty much dead...I'm proud to be a part of Firefox and the amazing change in the landscape that it's bringing about."

You are living in a fantasy world. The only "change" anything brought about, was the fact that every major IT publication in the world (and in following, many non-IT publications) suggested switching from IE, for security reasons. You just chose to initiate a hardcore marketing campaign during that time. Nothing more.

This comical, 'switch to Netscape' window does not appear in IE... funny.

Well, Safari and Phoenix were basically contemporaries, IIRC. And it's interesting to read this, because I wrote something very similar back in 2003, just a month before the MoFo spinoff. OmniWeb had just abandoned its own rendering engine in favor of WebCore, and I saw KHTML following in Gecko's footsteps as an engine that multiple browsers would start using. It seemed to me that with both Gecko and KHTML as building blocks, we'd finally see some real innovation...and we have.

I'd argue that Firefox didn't trigger this renaissance, but it's certainly been at the forefront. I think there were three critical events:

1. Apple releasing Safari based on KHTML (January? 2003)
2. AOL spinning off the Mozilla Foundation (July 2003)
3. CERT recommending people stop using IE for security reasons (June? 2004)

#1 certainly sent shock waves through the industry, #2 freed up Mozilla to actually build a browser instead of a "developer platform," and #3 brought large-scale attention to "alternative browsers."

Jim: I just tried going to www.netscape.com in several different browsers. I did get the splash screen on IE, but not on Opera 8. I did, however, get it when I looked at the page in both Firefox and Opera on Linux, which Netscape 8 doesn't run on! Konqueror, however, didn't get the messsage.

Nunya, 10% of the internetters now use Firefox. I think that's really a major accomplishment. Certainly an "amazing change in the landscape". Nothing more.

I just tried Netscape8, I like the installer, I hate the theme (odd looking and clumsy). Why on earth the menu to the right?
It seems like Netscape also tries to install spyware-like programs with it's own install?

And the reason for that 10% is the marketing push I spoke of in my previous reply. Not Firefox innovation (notice the title of the OP by asa?). Firefox has innovated NOTHING.

Mobile browsing: Innovators: Opera. Minimo is lightyears behind, and always will be (yes I know it's alpha or whatever, but it will still be years behind). Just look at how Mozilla tried to take credit (basically) for Spatial Navigation.

Desktop: Innovator: Opera. Need I say more? Nearly every feature you love in Firefox, Opera invented!

Accessibility: Innovator: Opera. They had full-page zoom first, and now they are the first (that I know of) to full integrate voice navigation for visually impaired people.

There are obviously more examples than this.

Firefox does not innovate, they imitate.

It has problem in the realization of its logic, which leads to performance problem. In short, it thinks it should use IE engine for every safe site. As safe sites are all popular sites by default (including Google), it uses two engines all the time. Now think how that affects performance. Also, with all its features it has considerably longer start-up time.

@Nunya

Firefox made everything in Opera more accesible, and that's what counts when it comes to features. Opera's UI in 5~6 was nigh on unusable. Firefox is "doing a Google" and forcing everybody else to catch up in the UI game. Remember spammy search engines with adverts, slow loading pages and hundreds upon hundreds of links, all before Google came along and fixed all that?

That's called innovation.

Asa,

For the record, all browsers excepts Netscape 8 bring this up, I believe. I've tried it with IE6 as well. It's just a ploy to get people to download the new Netscape. Annoying, yes. Very. ;)

Before, *I* tried to visit the new netscape.com, and I couldn't because it *requires* Flash and there is no alternate version available.

Sickening.

Besides the fact that your Firefox nighthly IS newer than Netscape 8, which is still using Firefox 1.0.3.

I think I'll stay away. Far, far away.

"before Firefox, the browser space was pretty much dead."
Are you saying that Opera and Safari didn't matter before Firefox was released? Are you implying that Firefox's existence makes Opera and Safari more legitimate where as they were previously not? It may not be what you intended to say, but your hubris, Asa, is quite displeasing and quickly eroding away at your credibility.

@ Nunya, so that 10% is purely the marketing push? Maybe you're right, but I don't think this would work if the browser wasn't any good.
Sure, Opera has innovated a lot of things, and I think it is a very fine (and fast!!!) browser.
Sure, Firefox has imitated a lot of things, but you really think that Firefox has imitated everything?

Firefox grew because it was released as 1.0 at the right time, when everyone wanted to get away from IE. It basically was "good enough", so people switched. It didn't need to be excellent, because IE was already so craptastic that switching was a joy.

Browser space pretty much dead before Firefox? Uh, not exactly. Most of the stuff Firefox does today was added by Opera back in the days before Firefox existed. Maybe Mozilla was dead, but Opera was being actively worked on.

The whole "Your Current Browser Is Outdated" thing is pretty funny considering that Netscape 8 is based on Firefox 1.0.3, and is vulnerable to both vulnerabilities that 1.0.4 fixed (although Netscape 8 currently only has update.mozilla.org whitelisted by default, not addons.mozilla.org)...

Lucx, Rick, etc: Remember that Asa's been involved in this Firefox thing since long before it was called Firefox. From his perspective, it started 2.5 years ago. (Phoenix 0.1 dates back to September 2002.)

And while I won't put words in Asa's mouth -- that seems to be your job -- I would actually say that it's true: Opera didn't matter much back then. Neither did Mozilla. And Safari didn't exist outside of Apple HQ. Do you people *remember* the web in 2002? No one outside of standards evangelists and the the relatively small groups of Mozilla and Opera users gave a flying fig about anything but Internet Explorer. Because Microsoft won the browser wars, end of story. AOL kept Mozilla and Netscape around mainly as leverage against Microsoft. Play nice, or we'll stop using your browser and turn five kazillion AOL members into Netscape users overnight!

Opera and Mozilla both kept plugging away, but neither got much respect.

That started to change around the time a small group of Mozilla coders started working on Phoenix, trying to make a simple, uncluttered, easy-to-use browser based around Gecko. Around the same time Apple started working in secret on their own uncluttered browser. Safari made it big-time, quickly becoming the main browser among Mac users even before it started shipping as the default -- but the Mac audience is, itself, small-time.

Yes, it took security hysteria for people to leave IE on Windows. Yes, Firefox hit 1.0 at the right time to capitalize on it. But you know what? Mozilla and Opera were both mature suites at the time, and Spread Firefox didn't even get going for months. So why didn't people switch in droves to Opera or Mozilla?

I think in part it was due to the perception of FF as the future of Mozilla, in part due to the simplicity of the Firefox UI, and in part due to Opera's business model. The ads are annoying. I, personally, am willing to pay a few bucks to get rid of them. I've been paying for Opera since the 3.x days, in part to help keep alternative browsers alive. Hell, I paid for Opera 8 even though my licenses for Windows and Linux were still good, because I've added a Mac to my household. But a lot of people aren't willing to spend money when they can get something similar for free, and a lot of people aren't willing to put up with the annoying banner ads or the potentially-intrusive AdSense ads.

But remember: before Firefox burst onto the scene, all browser development was on the fringe. All of it, Opera and Mozilla included. Now things are interesting again. Whether Firefox helped cause that or not is debatable, but it at the very least coincides with it. And given that Firefox is the corner Asa's familiar with, I don't begrudge him seeing it from that perspective.

Kroc
Opera's UI in 5~6 was nigh on unusable.

Wow! That's great. The rest of us are at version 8.0 buddy. The 7.x series has been out since 2003 or late 2002 maybe.

Firefox is "doing a Google" and forcing everybody else to catch up in the UI game.

catch up to what? So they have a few less buttons than IE and a search engine field. That's not much of a difference or innovation. Maybe browsers are catching up to IE instead?

I downloaded that thing to take it for a spin, as far as I'm concerned....NOPE...too close to IE + to close to AOL = cooties x problems squared...., now to find out its a lil quick on the 1.03 release..lol. I'll stick with Firefox and only use IE if I absolutley have too...there really isn't a website I can't also live without..the lil ieview extension is cool for that though.

> Firefox is "doing a Google" and forcing everybody
> else to catch up in the UI game.

Firefox is "doing IE", both with UI and lastest security holes. LOL, siple UI in browsers has been around since Mosaic times. Simple UI is one of the main features in Internet Exploiter. Did you try Opera 2.12?, it's powerfull and looks like a Notepad. Firefox reinvented the wheel and calls it "innovation".

Just want to know: do Firefox extensions work in this bloated Firefox? I don't think it will work properly, especially when it is using the IE engine.

ALERT (to Netscape 8.0 users)
Your Current Browser is Outdated.

Please upgrade to version 8.0.1 because we released 8.0 with fourty-four security flaws.

Doh! ^_-

that was stupid...why didn't they just hold off a day on the release so the initial 8.0 version would have the newest version of Fx?

@poop

Would you call Google innotive? Personally I would, it seems that they're the ones driving the search scene forward, not anybody else.
There was the burgening web, and we had Yahoo, Altavista, Excite, DogPile, HotBot et al all offering search and progressively these engines got worse and worse and worse. More ads, more links, more bad UI, less concern for the end user.

re-inventing the wheel is only innotive when absolutely everybody else is busy flogging their users hard with their wheel + free-weather-tray-info + 95%-more-feature's-you'll-use-5%-of-the-time.

I'd call Firefox innotive for using some God damn common sense for the first time in the browser scene. "Catching up with IE" indeed would be well put and Opera8 is equally under this belt. Without the pressure from Firefox, Opera would continue on the clear feature-creepism from 5 > 6 > 7...

shouldnt that be the other way round?

the brink bringing apple back from safari?

" Firefox is "doing a Google" and forcing everybody else to catch up in the UI game."

Firefox was just doing a Camino and making a similar sleek interface available for everyone else. K-Meleon had that scaled-down interface way before Firefox was a gleem in anyone's eyes

"Opera didn't matter much back then. Neither did Mozilla. And Safari didn't exist outside of Apple HQ."

Yet Opera kept innovating and redefining what a browser is and does. Asa does not give credit where credit is due, but pretends that Firefox is at the forefront of innovation.

The only innvation from Mozilla is the successful marketing and the timing of the Firefox 1.0 launch.

"Yes, Firefox hit 1.0 at the right time to capitalize on it. But you know what? Mozilla and Opera were both mature suites at the time"

But Opera hadn't released a new version for ages. See what happened when 8.0 was launched? It got a million downloads in a couple of days. Not as many as Firefox, but it still goes to show how much being "fresh" matters. Firefox was 1.0, the "new kid", even though it's basically "Mozilla 2.0".

"Hell, I paid for Opera 8 even though my licenses for Windows and Linux were still good, because I've added a Mac to my household"

You only have to pay for one license. With that single license you can register Opera for desktop on all computers in your household.

"And given that Firefox is the corner Asa's familiar with, I don't begrudge him seeing it from that perspective."

The least he can do is to stop pretending that Firefox is the leader and everyone else followers. He should stop pretending that Opera follows Firefox. Has he forgotten that all the features Firefox brags about were in Opera first? Some or most were even invented by Opera. And it continues with spatian navigation, instant back, etc.

Why does Asa say that Opera is following Firefox's lead? Why does he pretend that Opera doesn't exist when he wants to hype Firefox features ripped off from Opera? Trolling, many would call it. Maybe he isn't trolling. Maybe he's just proud of Firefox and the successful marketing. But he should stop his crusade against Opera!

Where did you get so many browser fanatic trolls on your blog Asa? Why are they even reading it if Firefox is insignificant? Firefox definitely sparked interest in alternative browsers. Heck, you could say they sparked interest in all alternative software, including Linux and OS X. 8-10% marketshare is rather impressive. I don't understand where all of the browser wars in forums and blogs are coming from. Firefox did more for [insert your alternative browser here] than they'll ever care to admit.

And about who's copying whom: Firefox has an extension for mouse gestures that copies Opera. Opera now has User Scripts built in that copy GreaseMonkey, to the point of even being compatible with the exact same scripts. Both browsers will copy each other in many features for some time to come. That point is moot.

"Yet Opera kept innovating and redefining what a browser is and does."

Did you even read what I wrote? You know, the part about how Opera and Mozilla kept plugging away, but never got any respect?

"But Opera hadn't released a new version for ages. See what happened when 8.0 was launched?"

OK, I'll grant that...but how many of those were switchers and how many were upgrades? And couldn't Opera have mounted a major campaign last summer based around their current version? At the very least they could have coordinated with WaSP to get more Opera users profiled at Browse Happy.

"You only have to pay for one license. With that single license you can register Opera for desktop on all computers in your household."

Yes... NOW. In the old days, you needed a separate license for each platform (and each computer). Sure, I got a discount, but when Opera released a Linux port, I had to get another license. While the licenses I bought for Opera 7 on Windows and Linux are still valid for Opera 8, neither would have worked on the Mac. Now, a single purchase gives you half a dozen reg codes -- one per platform.

Opera's my secondary browser on Linux, but I rarely use it on the Mac. I could easily have chosen not to buy a new license and stick with the ones I had. The point I was trying to make here is that I'm not some "opera sux, firefox rulez" fanboi. I like Opera, but I like Firefox better.

"Why does Asa say that Opera is following Firefox's lead?"

Because Firefox simplified its UI before Opera did. Seriously, that's the only issue I remember him making that claim on.

"Why does he pretend that Opera doesn't exist when he wants to hype Firefox features ripped off from Opera?"

How often does *anyone* point out "Our competitor has had feature X for ages, but now we have it too." Look at IEBlog or Opera press releases and you'll see the same thing. The only exception I can think of is Surfin' Safari.

"Trolling, many would call it."

On his own personal blog?

"Maybe he isn't trolling. Maybe he's just proud of Firefox and the successful marketing."

Ya think?

"But he should stop his crusade against Opera!"

*What* crusade against Opera?

OK, he has negative things to say about Opera sometimes, and positive things to say about Firefox. That's to be expected. If it were the other way around, I'd worry he was in the wrong place.

But everything I've read here is "Here's what I don't like about Opera" or "Here's something on which Firefox and Opera differ, and Firefox has been more successful, so let's assume this difference is part of the reason."

Nowhere have I seen him try to discourage people from using Opera, or express a desire to wipe Opera off of the net. I have, on a number of occasionas, seen him say, "Opera would be better/get more users if only they'd do X."

You, Nunya and others are *choosing* to be offended. I don't expect you to start pushing Firefox any more than I would expect Asa to start pushing Opera, but it would be nice if people would read what Asa, Ben, and others actually *say* and not read 25 layers of offense into everything.

benspace:

"And about who's copying whom: Firefox has an extension for mouse gestures that copies Opera. Opera now has User Scripts built in that copy GreaseMonkey, to the point of even being compatible with the exact same scripts. Both browsers will copy each other in many features for some time to come. That point is moot."

Once again (imagine that), you are missing the point. Opera at least ACKNOWLEDGES Greasemonkey exists!! ASA claims innovation with ripped off features, Opera does not! See http://my.opera.com/hallvors/journal/44#usercomments for an example of this: Opera states that implementations of UserJS were in Opera before Greasemonkey (Opera's Bork edition) but they at least ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT EXISTS.. Asa and Firefox all swear that they are the innovators, and that Opera is following, when clearly, this is just not the case (what? because they streamlined the UI? They could have gotten that from ANY OTHER browser, not just FIREFOX!)

"Where did you get so many browser fanatic trolls on your blog Asa?"

He did it on purpose. Did you not see his recent post, encouraging FF users to go to the ./ flamewar thread? He FEEDS off of it.

"OK, he has negative things to say about Opera sometimes, and positive things to say about Firefox. That's to be expected. If it were the other way around, I'd worry he was in the wrong place."

Show me an example of anyone else, involved directly with another browser, spending so much time to JUST to put it's competitors down, as Asa has with Opera on this blog. It isn't about him criticizing, that's fine. But he is cloaking an anti-Opera sentiment in flowery, "unoffensive" words. You don't see any Opera coders or higher-ups doing reviews on Firefox, do you? Asa is just childish, and his recent post ("you know you love it") is more an example of that than anything in the past. Search the MyOpera forums, and look for someone involved in Opera ENCOURAGING FLAMEWARS.. You won't find it. Because Opera and everyone involved directly with the browser knows how immature and just plain stupid that would be.

Always impressive to see how Opera fanboys never miss an opportunity to make Opera look really bad by ranting and spamming on competitor's weblogs and forums. Way to go, kids. That's how to win over people's hearts, sympathies, respect and credibility.

Even some FF users have complained here about some of Asa's comments. Ranting is allowed, and just becuase you don't like what we say, does not make it spam.

"And couldn't Opera have mounted a major campaign last summer based around their current version?"

Of course not. That version was old by then. How on earth are you going to get people interested in a version that's "7.23" or "7.54", and has been out for ages?

"Because Firefox simplified its UI before Opera did."

Uh. There have been LOADS of simplified browsers before Firefox came around.

'switch to Netscape' window does not appear in IE...

OK, I have not sweated either for developing or for promoting FF/Opera/anything else in my life.

So I guess my credentials as an unbiased user are impeccable.

FF is better because people are working at it, building extensions that users can choose to install/not install. I don't think the same can be said about Opera. I do agree that Opera innovates - most of the features we love were originally 'dreamed up' by the Opera guys. And they are still doing all that.

But from a user's perspective, the freshness that comes with every new FF extension cannot be replicated in Opera.

Plus, FF does not have ads (paying for a browser is, in my opinion, inane).

PS - i found Ben's comments on Netscape 8's security patch problem weird too. It took 1 day for Netscape to fix the bug. I am sure FF would not have been any faster in fixing the same bug for 1.0.3 when it was discovered.