I think Microsoft cares about 1/6 as much about their users as they do about preserving their monopoly.

Proof comment: I think you ment Blog not Blob

:D You forgot your affiliate id in firefox link

I truly hope that they don't support target="_tab" because then the pressure will be on for other tabbed browsers to follow. And I happen to like choice.

Why are you focussing on IE?

IE has 90% market share and you have 6%.

See what we can do for Firefox 1.1 rather than bad mouthing about IE 7. Firefox came last year. It would seem like years ago when IE 7 knocks this summer. Get ya browser ready !!

I think that the world is rather harsh on the IE devs on a personal level. By all means, the IE Blog is often quite weak and short of vital details, but that is not really the fault of those who write it.

Microsoft marketing hold the strings as regards what information can and can't be put out to the world. Sure, the whole IEBlog idea was a bit silly, given that constraint. As much as we may have more info about IE7, it doesn't actually satisfy the want of web developers or customers.

That isn't the fault of the developers though. They're no different to any other software developers - except that they get personally attacked for the perceived faults of Microsoft corp. Did Ben and Blake get personally flamed for the failings of the Netscape organisation all those years ago? I doubt it, and rightfully so. In the same way, the Microsoft devs aren't the right people to be targeting when you pick your fight with Microsoft politics.

I don't know if you mean to use quite such an aggressive tone Asa, but the way in which you're attacking the IE team individuals, and mixing up the efforts of their developers verses the political ambition of Microsoft itself is really doing nothing but fuel flames of fanboyism. A phenomenon that does nothing but discredit Firefox and undermine the efforts of more talented, intelligent evangelists.

I'm sure there are many zealotous people who attach themselves to the Firefox community who would claim "they work for Microsoft and deserve to burn in hell, rah rah rah Open Sauce* r000lze" or some such, but those people should be ignored in favour maturity and what should ultimately boil down to respect for others in the same software development profession. The world would be a far better place for it.

Ultimately, it's rather unfair that Microsoft's devs are roped into the IEBlog PR stunt. It probably seemed a good idea at the time and a great opportunity before the restrictions were revealed, I guess. However, the format isn't right for their development model.
They'd be better off having a simple news feed and dumping the blog altogether (especially the comments, which are drowned in so much fanboy, slashdotted rubbish that they're useless).

Oh, and as for tabs in IE7 - excellent news (if a long time coming, of course).

How about getting this across?

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179656

They are simply trying to preserve their marketshare - and while it's sad that the only thing that can force them to update their browser is a perceived threat to that dominance, I hope that MS at least takes this chance to put out a solid update, rather than some stopgap measure to please potential switchers.

As a web developer, I pray that they don't simply add enough features to placate the masses - but actually make wholesale changes under the hood to bring their browser up to snuff with commonly accepted web standards. Like it or not, they're still the top dog in the industry, so having them adhere to more standards would make many people's lives a lot easier.

Axord, you want to say that you have choice now? What about target="_blank", when the new window is opened?
Anyway, tab options or extensions like Tabbed Browsing or Tab Mix allow you to force link to open in new window. The same way they could force it to open in new tab.

Allan, check the "Tab Mix" extension. Works great.

As for IE, I think they "didn't do tabs sooner" just because IE is just a browser, a part of a whole system, so they used the priciple "it works, and so it`s ok".

Now, when FF`s popularity grows, they`ve looked arround and said: "Holy sh#t! Those open-sourcers *) are going to show people that IE sucks, so we have to do something, because now even a baby can see it".

They`ve decided to start from almost standart feature. I do understand them, but hardly this will help. Unfortunately, when I see screenshots with Firefox browser somewhere in Internet, I see several single-tabbed (or how do they call it? "kiosk"?) Firefox. It looks like a lot of people just can`t see all the advantages of TB, or they don`t need it.

---
Pardon me my english *)

Wild idea for you, Asa. How about you focus on Firefox and stop spouting stupid, pointless flames on every other browser. It looks insanely unprofessional and undignified and is probably doing more to harm your cause than help it. News flash for you: Firefox is not the ne plus ultra browser you think it is yet, and even if it will eventually become that, it doesn't do anyone service to make petty jabs at your competitors.

Sounds like you know a lot of about stupid, pointless flames, Josh...

Why are you getting so agressive against IE ? I have seen it in a number a blog entries from you. Honestly you should concentrate on Firefox.

Regarding tabs, I am reading this as the IE7 beta will have basic tab comparable to what firefox has out of the box.namely openining link in tabs.

I bet the final IE7 will add some of the better ideas from firefox extensions, and offcource some of their own ideas.

Just because firefox has the functionality does not mean they are equal. IE7 will then have the upper hand because it has better out-of-the-box functionality.

In my view, Firefox need to enhance its tab functions to better compete with IE 7. A extention like "MiniT" should be included by default.

MiniT (Adds a few tab related functions)

1) docShell.allow* attributes can be changed via tab context menu.
2) Tabs can be switched by turning the mouse wheel on the tab bar.
3) Browser is refocused on UI middle click.
4) New tabs can be opened by double clicking on any tab.
5) Tabs can be dragged. If dropped within the tab bar the tabs will be reordered, otherwise only the url is dropped as text/x-moz-url, text/html, or text/unicode.

I especially like the function number 5. I cannot live without MiniT any longer :-)

http://www.extensionsmirror.nl/index.php?showtopic=161

Asa,

you are definitely right about the fact that Microsoft wants to keep monopoly, and not to help its users to the more extent than those two goals are compatible.

Unfortunatly, I would like to remind you on one fact that MS has proven record of being able to beat those companies that were better than it.

As I always say: Microsoft has proved to be master of marketing. Don't downplay the marketing.

Correction: Firefox needs to ;-)

Tabbrowser Preferences is also a must-have extention.

http://216.55.161.203/theonekea/tabprefs/

Ivan, I agree with you, but there are cases in which Microsoft failed to beat those products superior to theirs, iTunes, for example :-)

"See, I've got this sneaking suspicion that Microsoft doesn't care half as much about its users as they do about preserving their monopoly."

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!

FWIW, Maxthon also supports the MozIE plugin. :)

If M$ kicks Moz butt this summer, it is all due to Asa's looking at IE than maintaining Firefox. There, I have said it.

Asa really needs to focus on Firefox, because it is a crucial time in make-or-die stage of FF.

Comeon Asa !!

Asa, I think you need to dig your analysis one level deeper. If Microsoft only cares about continuing its monopoly, or only cares about making customers happy, either will only be a result of its one fundamental, uncontested, legally required desire: to maximize its return to its shareholders. If this means keeping their monopoly, that's what they'll do. If it means keeping their customers happy, that's what they'll do.

There's a great deal of reflexive, unthinking Microsoft bashing in the world, and I'd like to see it stop. It's unprofessional. I'm reminded of a little-league coach I watched the other day, while his team of 10- and 11-year-olds jumped up and down after winning. He yelled at them, "Calm down! Act like you've won before." Often the free-software community could benefit from similar advice.

Steve.

While you have a point, and you are right, Asa is expressing what thousands of us feel. Abandonment.

MS left us in the dust, and gave us shit for over 5 years.

Sure it's unprofessional, but you are reading this on HIS blog, and not on some official Mozilla Blog (a.k.a marketing scam).

Yeah, he's wrong a lot of the time, but it's his choice to be wrong.

I for one feel the same, I don't have anything agaist MS because of some stupid anti-microsoft OS stance, instead my own rath comes from broken promises and abandonment.

Each of us handle it in a different way.

Maybe you guys should stop blaming Asa personally.This is his personal blog. His view doesn't necessary reflect that of MoFo. He can post whatever he wants. Like it or not.

P.S. How can one said that he is not "concentrating" on Firefox developement simply because he made one or two posts about his view on other browsers? :-S

Guys, did anybody of you read those comments in IE7 blog?
Most of posters there do not want to hear about tabs (but rather about modern web-standards support, which is really a fair point) or want them to be disabled on demand.
Gosh!
And let's say "No" to this "_tab" thingie - it really smells.
BTW, I cannot live without MDI in Opera.

As if Firefox' tab features are "advacned".
Compared to Opera/Maxthon Firefox really has "very basic" tabbing.

We never said Firefox's tabbed interface is "advanced".

Firefox is a browser that "just works". It doesn't have those "advanced" features that are used by just a tiny portional of the people. Get an extensions if you want advanced stuffs. ;-)

Has it ever occured to you that the best way to maintain a monopoly might be to make sure customers get what they want? I know the concept is foriegn to most of the anti-ms groups, since they seem to think the only way to grow market share is to bash MS.
Tabbed browsing is NO BIG DEAL. I have been hitting shift click and getting a new window since before IE stomped netscape. Its the same damn thing. Oh yeah, except Microsoft has already learned that the MDI model is too confusing for the average user - not all users, but the average user. If you had billions in the bank, you too could afford a user focus group R&D effort and discover this for yourself. Word and excell had tabbed (MDI) interfaces, they are now gone, for a reason! The reason the nutscrape croud is so into tabbed browsing is they are not the average user.
Wake up, stop saying tabbed browsing is innovative. MDI was around since windows 3.1. Get a life.

Did no-one else notice that the IE Blog about tabs starts by outlining the compatability and security problems of other tab implementations, and yet, when it is realised that that MSFT has abandoned all the poor saps on earlier OS releases who will never see IE7 it is promptly suggested that they adopt one of these very same security-challenged tab implementations rather than jump ship to Firefox.

MICROSOFT ROCKS! -tabbed browsing isnt that great anyway - sike

I am a web designer and frankly I really hope that Microsoft maintains their majority position. I lived throught the browser wars and can assure you that it was no fun. I dread the thought that we slide back into that sort of crap.

Hey guy can we stop flaming ASA, Firefox is good as it is, but yes it still needs work. There is no need to insult people about it.

Hey Rick. I'm a web-application developer who also lived though the browser wars. And no, it was not fun. But I'm tired of trying to get IE to do the things that are clearly defined in the w3c's version of HTML and CSS2. I dread that MS will one day kill off any remaining hope of a (w3c) standards-based browser.

This is not yesterday's browser war. We have amazing tools on the server side to seamlessly provide broken content to broken browsers. We have CSS to keep our HTML standard and our look and graphics elsewhere.

This won't be a war. This will be a revolution.

- Dan

>Why are you focussing on IE?
>
>IE has 90% market share and you have 6%.
>
>See what we can do for Firefox 1.1 rather than
>bad mouthing about IE 7. Firefox came last year.
>It would seem like years ago when IE 7 knocks
>this summer. Get ya browser ready !!
>Posted by: A wellwisher on May 16, 2005 12:50 PM

IE doesn't have 90% market share, looking at the statistics online I don't think it's ever even hit 73% market share. About 1 in 4 people right now are using Firefox, not a meager 6% like you suggest.

97.3% of statistics are made up

Ever? Right. That would explain the hubbub when IE's share dropped to 89% just recently. And it's apparently still over 90% on systems running Windows.

Firefox has enormous potential, but comments like yours and Asa's aren't going to progress it. I agree with the comments above, Microsoft is a marketing machine and IE is still firmly entrenched for the layman internet user; Firefox isn't going to pose any real threat without fighting fire with fire.

Internet Explorer Market Share Dips Below 90% [CNN.com]

Statistics may be fudged, but this has been consistent for years; pick a source.

What's the big deal with tabbed browsing. I have had tabbed browsing in IE for years. Every time you open a new page a tab is placed in the task bar at the bottom of the page. You can have as many tabs as you want and they do not take up desktop real estate if you keep the task bark automatically hidden. Simply expand the height of the task bar. I have had as many as 30 opened in IE 6. What's the big deal.

Microsoft is running to catch up again, they spend far to much time fixing bad code and exploits to concentrate on real value products that users really need.
A first thought would be, "Will I be more vunarable to an increased ability to attracted viruses, with multple exploitable tabs?"
Microsoft will have to go the extra mile to win users away from the reliable Firefox.

I'm not certain what the issue is with XP upgrades as there are quite a few Tabbed browsers for IE that work in XP. I personally use one named Maxthon http://www.maxthon.com (formerly MyIE) which of those I've tested, including Firefox, has the most evolved tabbed interface functionality.

I am eagerly awaiting being able to use Firefox, but there are still a few issues that make it unusable for me. I keep downloading, testing, and reporting though, so hopefully soon.

leptoo: Have you even tried tabs? If so, did you try them for more than a few minutes? (I didn't even have to try them to get hooked... I just knew beforehand that they would work miracles with my online efficiency.)

Asa, meet capitalism.

You edited the text of your blog entry. You originally said "Just because their motivation is evil" and now it reads "Just because their motivation is lame".

Sneaky.

Check out http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/05/16/417732.aspx#418029, where this entry was trackbacked.

The text is a bit munged, but it's clearly Asa's blog entry, complete with link. And there's the evidence.

Sharp, I did indeed. I make lots of edits to my blogs. As a matter of fact, I just made one more edit to this post. Can you find it?

- A

That's a misdirection. Making meaningful, intent-changing edits to a blog entry after it has comments isn't kosher in my book. And changing "evil" into "lame" is an intent changing edit.

Sharp,

Well, I guess it's good, then, that your definition of what is or isn't kosher at my weblog doesn't matter one whit to me :-)

- A

great blog!! kick IEs butt

"See, I've got this sneaking suspicion that Microsoft doesn't care half as much about its users as they do about preserving their monopoly."

That's sounds very familar cough-AOL-cough.

LOL You think firefox cares about what there users wants? nope, they dont either, else by now they surely would of made firefox use was less ram, memory, and be as fast as opera.