Interesting post. And I agree, all the way. Maybe that's why I find it interesting? ;-)

Opera is most definitely getting more and more complicated in terms of useability/interface. Version 8 is even more confusing than 7. That said, once it is configured it works like a dream. Far better than any FF extension IMHO.
I don't think it really matters that much though. The fact is Opera will only ever be a niche browser, not because it is inferior to FF (actually i think it is far superior (at least for now)) but simply because it is commercial software whilst both FF and IE are effectively free for any Windows user. The people who are willing to shell out money for it, myself included, will probably be willing to put up with the complicated customisation. And lets face it, you only ever really set the thing up once.

Absolutely. An improved web experience for everyone is exactly what everyone wants.

Why do like half of asa's recent posts pick on Opera?

...Feel threatened, perhaps?

I, for one, think that Opera is still going for someone other than the users that "just need a back button". It still looks and feels more cumbersome with its own look (since when did it become "cool" to look like a non-native app?), in-your-face location bar (on click) and maze of preferences. I still use it for testing purposes, but that's about it.

"since when did it become "cool" to look like a non-native app?"

That's easily changed in the settings. Something Firefox can't handle in many respects due to XUL, at least on Windows XP, which is a pretty large part of its audience. It follow the theme engine poorly. So watch what you're complaining about. :-)

Anyway, I'd be careful to call an extracted application that's 5 MB large "bloated", with loading times and rendering speeds being top notch and in many cases far better than Firefox's -- compare the back/forward button speeds and loading times for example.

I think the Opera team deserve an applause more than anything else for managing to deliver a feature rich browser that's physically small, has a small memory footprint, and with (at least in version 8) features not getting in the way too much by the huge menus found in Opera 7, etc.

There was a discussion on the MZ forums about how Opera is smaller. Basically, the executable and dll files are compressed to be smaller, where Firefox's isn't. However, this does affect performance to some extent, which is why, to my knowledge, we haven't gone that route. At the time, the Firefox .exe when run through that process was even smaller than Opera's, so its not like they're simply writing much more compact code.

ok this is a little wrong, I would have to say that this post is atleast a little flaimbait, I mean comeon the last two post regarding opera were met with flame wars. Granted that you shouldnt care what the stupid trolls do and ignore them, but bating them to moan and bitch isnt responsible either. Dont get me wrong these posts are great pieces of analysis on gui's but doing this right after the last two posts is a little wrong.

XUL is bloated, Gecko is bloated, Firefox is bloated.

Jug: When we talk about bloat and Opera its not about loading times and rendering speed.

But bloat in the sense that Opera has too many features not needed by most users, and by that clutter up the user-interface too the point where it makes it more difficult to use (especially for the non-tech users just wanting to browse the web).

ForFire suxxorz. Hmm.. or was it the opposite?

Asa, you need to realize that Opera Software and Opera users don't necessarily think the same. I have been asking Opera since 2002 (Opera 7.0 was in testing, and Phoenix was on the scene) to simplify their interface, make it easier to use, and more like Internet Explorer "out of the box". They also have a habit of trying to please everyone's small interface issues even if it means making a much more complicated product. It was holding them back the same way Mozilla was. Perhaps these Opera users you heard saying "no real internet user would settle for anything less than Opera's powerful suite of applications" were agreeing with whatever Opera did because they were a little too attached to it.

I believe myself to be somewhat knowledgeable about interface design (maybe because my ideas get implemented in products even if they come a few years late). If they had listened I'm sure Opera could have taken a large bite of the browser market even being adware. Now, since Firebird started to make a dent in the market Opera took notice and starting doing this work. But in my opinion they did it too well and if you take a look at Opera 8 they simplified it too well in some areas. And for some reason they like being different for the sake of being different and this makes it difficult to switch over from IE. I have to say that Opera has great software engineers but horrible interface designers.

You want to talk "feature creep"? Look no further than the Tools menu in the latest Firefox nightly.

James, I'm also not pleased with the addition of more menu items, but those are not new features. We've had application update and a button for clearing privacy data for quite a while. It's my opinion that application update UI doesn't need to exist until there's an application update so I think this menu item is unnecessary. I also think that there aren't that many people that regularly clear all of their privacy data with any regularity and think that menu item is also unnecessary.

- A

"You want to talk "feature creep"? Look no further than the Tools menu in the latest Firefox nightly."

That was exactly my thought when I saw a recent nightly. The Firefox Devs really need to sort that menu out in some way. As it is at the moment (in the nightlies) it is too long and too fractured. I'm sure Blake would agree with this too.

Asa, you're saying clutter and bloat are real, not impressions. I partly disagree on this.

In Opera 8, UI relating to mail, news and chat is hidden until you set up an account, from the Tools -> Accounts menu item. (Note there are two menu items relating to mail in my Firefox Tools menu as well.) Yet still, there are people bashing this release of Opera for being a bloated suite instead of simply a browser.

My response to that is that Opera has taken great steps in reducing the objective clutter and bloat with version 8. If the suite-bloat isn't in the UI, download size, speed or memory consumption, where is it? The 'bloat' that remains seems to be the subjective bloat, or as I would call it the 'between the ears'-notion of the mail/news/chat client in the background, which you can't see.

I'd love to hear people's opinion of what objective bloat remains in Opera 8. I must say that what I've read the last couple of days isn't very serious or convincing.

I like how Asa constantly puts Opera down in these subtle ways disguised as constructive criticism, but when people refute him, he manages to pick out only comments about Firefox, and respond to those.

He'll put it down and put it down, but when he's called out for what he says, it seems he crawls back into his hole without anything to say.

Way to bring something up just to attempt to make Firefox seem better (which is a matter of opinion, not a fact only because ASA says so), and then totally ignore what anyone has to say about the REAL POINT of the thread.

:rolls eyes: This is almost as bad as Microsoft FUD..

BTW, Opera can be made to look like whatever you want, just by clicking a couple links. It can even look and function almost exactly like Firefox (menus and all) with a few mouseclicks.

So I really don't feel feature bloat is a relevant complaint, when the UI is faster, the file is smaller (could be irrelevant, as stated before), and the UI is COMPLETELY customizable, down to EVERY SINLE MENU ENTRY. Bloat?! Psh.

Example:
http://my.opera.com/Rijk/journal/43

"... and the UI is COMPLETELY customizable, down to EVERY SINLE MENU ENTRY. Bloat?! Psh."

Heh. That's exactly the kind of feature bloat he's talking about ;-)

Although, seriously, I haven't actually had that feature get in my way.

One thing which gets me though: Why can I not (in this uber-customizable browser) get the tab bar (aka "page bar") where I want it. (Just above the page?)

Fabian, if you'll read around, you'll see that I've praised Opera's move in the direction of simplicity and ease of use.

- A

> "That's exactly the kind of feature bloat he's talking about ;-)"

Right. A few (one-click installable) kb-text file being used to layout the menus is feature bloat.

> "One thing which gets me though: Why can I not (in this uber-customizable browser) get the tab bar (aka "page bar") where I want it. (Just above the page?)"

It admittedly could be easier, as things are now (I believe toolbar customizing is one thing that is being looked into, as far as simplifying it ..don't hold me to that, though!) It usually involves docking the address field in another toolbar. I.E. I have put my address field in my main bar, and if I put the page bar's placement to top while my UI is configured in this way, it WILL be directly above the page's contents.

If you actually use Opera, and would like some help accomplishing this, I will be glad to help (I'm on the Opera forms as DJ SkaM, you can PM me there if you would like help). I kinda don't think it matters to you, though, based on your post. :D

Heh, back when I used to use Opera (back around 2.x), it used to fit on a floppy, and it used to be one of their major features. That’d still be a good selling point for a browser like Firefox, which aims to be light and simple.

"Right. A few (one-click installable) kb-text file being used to layout the menus is feature bloat."

In a way it is, since Opera won't let me customize the toolbars in a simple intuitive way. If I can't even do that I don't really care whether they can be setup using one-click installs.

"... I have put my address field in my main bar, and if I put the page bar's placement to top while my UI is configured in this way, ..."

I forgot to say I have tried that, and that makes the adverts change shape, and the main bar will only take up half the width. I want: ads (full width), main bar (full width) and page bar. Mockup of how I would like my toolbars positioned.

uncle , I don't see why you'd want anything to look like Internet Explorer *shrugs* I just changed a few things in Firefox to my liking and im good to go, No simplicity just ease of use. I dont really mind the interface of Opera but it's just doesn't really look like something i'd use. I cant stand how browser wars come and go.

-A2E

I still have Opera 3.6 on an old 486 and it is a beaut. I think it fits on a floppy too!

I was actually a paid user of Opera 3.6, too. It fit on a floppy and ran really well. And I could run it on my Mom's old PC at the time. I was even interviewed for a small tech show regarding Opera.

I remember seeing 7.0 coming as well. It's a complete disaster to me in terms of usability and I can't image myself ever paying for something like that. I'll be using Firefox for the forseeable future. I test in Opera, but still shudder when I open it.

John, how long did you give Opera 7 a shot? Not criticizing, just curious! Since Opera 7/8 can be customized to look/function pretty much just like any previous version of Opera (or another browser altogether, http://my.opera.com/Rijk/journal/43).

A2E, this must mean you don't agree with the direction Firefox has taken. Firefox shares many things with IE in the interface, features, and rendering. Examples: menu layout, naming conventions, keyboard shortcuts, upcoming Zones feature, remembering forms, document.all support. The list goes on and on.

Nunya, I messed with it a little bit... but it was such a convoluted mess by default that I just stripped it down to a Firefox-ish setup and left it alone, just using it to test, it had left such a bad taste in my mouth.

I just installed 8.0 and it seems nice and simple by default... very much like Firefox.

I'll use it for testing, but I think I'm done with Opera for good otherwise. Firefox does everything I need and has so many fun extensions. Plus there's the whole portable aspect that I do.

Fair enough. :)

Well, here is an 'answer' from OPERA:

http://my.opera.com/haavard/journal/42

Asa might have a bias, but he's not a blind fanboy/cretin who's out to critisise Opera without a reason. People (including Asa) have been blogging a lot about Opera recently and there is a big clue as to why - the Opera 8 release.

I'd like to address a few points that seem to be popping up time and time again in blogs and forums and suchlike.

1. Firefox and Opera aren't really following each other, nor are they following MSIE. They're both making design and feature implementation decisions for the good of the user. For Firefox that might mean adding features, for Opera that might mean simplifying. The bottom line is that the two approaches both have their merits and appropriate markets. Neither approach is perfect.

2. Putting the relative success of Firefox down to marketing is folly. Marketing only works so long as you have a strong enough product to back your promises and claims.

Likewise, hype is something that can only exist about an unknown quantity. You can hype unreleased movies because you think they're going to be great. Once that movie is released, hype instantly dies. The movie is either good enough or it is not. Firefox's continuing market growth indicates that it's doing something very *right*.

3. Speed is virtually uncomparable. Judging products on their relative speeds isn't really something that can be done in a blanket way. Also, a page may render faster in Opera, but for some reason it may be easier to reach your goal (finding information, saving something, etc) with Firefox or another browser entirely.

Speed includes usability, your specific pattern of use, accessibility, rendering (or literal computational speed), reaction times and so on. Fanboys on either side toting speeds as a reason for using their browser need to wise up to this.

4. Constructive critisism cannot be a guise to "put down" a product, you either ignore it and make excuses or take on board the fact that someone might see things a different way.

5. I don't see any reason why Opera cannot dramatically increase it's market share, but since that isn't happening on it's own, obviously changes are required. Marketing is only one of the many things Opera can do better to achieve market growth.

6. The developers of every browser can learn lessons from the others. No single solution to interface design can be "right", but there are plenty of things that can be done "wrong", that exist in both Firefox and Opera. Evaluating UI and clearing out the ones that pose usability problems will mean that Mozilla.org and Opera staff make unpopular decisions.

7. To everyone who thinks Asa is afraid of Opera or is trying to put it down, I suggest you get a clue. Maybe posting about Opera in rapid succession was bound to get the fanboys out in force, but they should know better than to pollute other people's blogs with utter trash anyway. I don't condone Firefox trolling either, before anyone thinks that I'm somehow pulling a double standard here.

After reading the post... Waiiiit.

Simplified:
1. "We're trying to simplify the suite."
2. "Existing clutter in an illusion."

or, even simpler,
1. "We're getting rid of excess."
2. "There is no excess."

Before people continue to flame Asa... just remember, it's HIS BLOG!
Who cares what he thinks, if you do, that is great, if you don't, stop reading his blog. I applaud him for coming out strong, so those who want can listen and take his criticism however they want.

Firefox isn't perfact, nor is Opera.
But if you can nit-pick at one or the either and express what you do not like about them, then cool, maybe it will make a difference.

Why is Akhenaten saying "we" as if the subtitles blog was an official Opera blog?

Also, what does kam_yuen mean by "Opera is most definitely getting more and more complicated in terms of useability/interface. Version 8 is even more confusing than 7"? This is clearly not the case.

"Also, what does kam_yuen mean by [...] This is clearly not the case."

I agree. Opera 8 is, at least regarding the menus, pretty light-weight. Still, it's a little difficult to configure the toolbars. (The part of the browser which is most often customized?)

What specifically is hard about customizing the toolbars in Opera?
Getting rid of stuff is very easy (right click and remove) and more detailed modifications are just a matter of choosing to customise (right click->customize or view->toolbars->customize) and then dragging and dropping stuff where you like.

Opera is still quite fast at page rendering. And it's blazingly fast on the "Back" navigation. Hit the button and the previous page is there instantly; no redrawing or redownloading of anything.

I would not say Opera is getting closer to Firefox, as Firefox is the famous "copycat" (no pun intended, this is a historical fact; thigs like integrated search, newsreader, popup blocker have been in Opera for ages).

What I love about Opera is that it is more configurable than Firefox, has way more features (even with 25 extensions installed in Firefox), and is significantly faster for daily browsing.

While I am happy that there is a free alternative, for daily usage, spending $39 for Opera pays off for some people :-)

My Opera config which was created within 60 seconds after a clean installation: http://hulan.cz/temp/opera8.png (not exactly bloted, right?)

Interesting article and comments. To me, I don't feel there is a need to compare Opera and Firefox; only a need for them both to keep improving (and other browsers too, for that matter).

I like the fact that Opera and Firefox are not the same. In particular, I like having many of Opera's features at my fingertips, but also like knowing that Firefox is a clean and simple browser for everyday web users. That's why I both Spread Firefox and pay for Opera. :-)